Scion class question

Dungeons & Dragons BRCS 3.0/3.5 Edition
1

Hmmm… well, on the old page, we had a discussion about the impact of resurrection magic and scion class levels - that it made sense to lose the level of scion should you ever be raised.

Another ugly one just reared its head IMC. A minor bloodline character was just invested with a major bloodline. Not bloodthefted, mind you, but invested.

What happens here? I have ruled that the very next level must be the scion level in this case, and that until they level up, they do not get the full benefits (including major blood abilities!) of their bloodline. This accounts for the fact that the blood is partly latent within them at this time - it also means that their bloodline is currently 4 points lower than it will be once they level up.

Obviously, this gets interesting for commoners inheriting bloodlines of significance too. Especially if they somehow inherited a great line (yeah, I know the odds are so minimal that this should not ever happen).

Any thoughts, or comments? Perhaps a different viewpoint on how I should handle this?

2

I agree actually. This is basically what I did in the game I’m running, except with characters being born with bloodlines. I wouldn’t allow them to use their Blood abilities until they had the appropriate number of levels of scion. I did not lower their Blood points based on not having the scion levels though, I feel the Scion levels are a permanent increase, a reward for the dedication the regent shows in cultivating their bloodline. I don’t feel this is out of line since otherwise the scion classes are fairly weak.

3

You cannot gain major blood abilities until you have 1 level of scion class.

Being invested with a major bloodline allows access to that level. Until you take it you gain none of the benefits of having that scion class level (no regency benefits, no class skills, no major blood abilities). If the character chooses to not take that scion class level he is choosing to turn his back on what his potential is.

You are not invested with blood abilities - only the potential to access them.

4

In a message dated 9/3/06 7:41:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET writes:

<< Another ugly one just reared its head IMC. A minor bloodline character
was just invested with a major bloodline. Not bloodthefted, mind you, but
invested.

What happens here? I have ruled that the very next level must be the scion
level in this case, and that until they level up, they do not get the full
benefits (including major blood abilities!) of their bloodline. This accounts
for the fact that the blood is partly latent within them at this time - it also
means that their bloodline is currently 4 points lower than it will be once
they level up.

Obviously, this gets interesting for commoners inheriting bloodlines of
significance too. Especially if they somehow inherited a great line (yeah, I know
the odds are so minimal that this should not ever happen).

Any thoughts, or comments? Perhaps a different viewpoint on how I should
handle this? >>

I`m agreeing with you.  That`s a really big life-adjustment to make: new

powers, new insights, etc. If they want the bennies, that PC will have to
suck it up and take the level, just like someone who “took” it at first level.
FWIW, Im a DM who makes his players play out at least a little bit, the next class they are working toward. The 3e ability to hack, hack, hack all week, and say, "hey, look, Im a druid!" on Sunday bothers me no end.

Lee.

5

which doesnt make a lick of sense in the “fluff” of the game. A class level denotes training and effort to manifest those blood abilities, whereas in the books those abilities manifest innately at puberty(with the exception of some abilities which manifest at birth, such as Bloodmark). They take no training to use.

Much like WotC suggests that LA should be tacked on immediately, the scion levels should be tacked on as soon as the power is gained(either at puberty or when a mundane becomes a scion through bloodtheft/usurpation).
It is in this case that I believe that the level adjustments of the previous edition of the BRCS were better. The entire party has blood abilities to some extent anyway, making the power increase of the PCs(who were always better than the average D&D PC anyway) that much less significant.

6

I tend to agree with SM21, at least ass far as the original flavour of the game went. By changing Scion to a required Class Level, it changes how Bloodlines feel, and manifest- cool, but it IS a significant change in the Colour of the game world.

When a Scion relinquishes their Bloodline to a Successor, what of that level? I suppose it becomes like a level of Paladin when his oath is broken- largely wasted.

I guess in the end it matters little- when building a high-level character, it actually helps slightly. I guess I’m just conservative, and since it didn’t seem broken, it didn’t seem like it needed fixing.:cool:

7

I tend to agree with SM21 also. In 2E Blood Abilities had the mystic/Divine feeling they were intended to. That’s the one thing that has bugged me about 3E, instead of feeling Divine, Blood Abilities feel like any commodity a player might want to use.

Through careful Roleplaying and House Rules, I’ve tried to keep that feeling in the game.

However, I do agree with the Mechanics of using the scion level. Sure, it does have an effect on the feel of blood abilities, but the mechanics of it work well, especially in the area of balance. I always felt that Scions had too man advantages over non-scions, and this does serve well to balance that out.

Still, IMO, we have to tread carefully to preserve the original feel of what a Bloodline is, while still being fun.

8

Here are examples of where WotC has put out things that don’t follow that logic.

The Savage Progression series on the WotC site. Which covers how to gain templates mid-level - and is a very good example of a similar thing to how a character can gain a bloodline after 1st elvel.

[ul]
[li][FONT=Verdana]Characters are not required to complete all the levels of a given template class in uninterrupted succession. For example, a character who takes a level of wereboar could then take a level of fighter and a level of rogue (or any other combination of other class levels) before taking another level of wereboar. A character must still take the first level of wereboar before taking the second, just as with a normal class.[/FONT][/ul][FONT=Verdana]The paragon racial clases contained in Unearthed Arcana. These are means where a character can become the epitomy of his race. These levels are not required to be taken immediately or in a consecutive series (i.e., without taking any other classes between).[/FONT][/li]Racial substitution levels. A character is not required to take any of them. And if they take one they are not required to take any of the others.
“Training” is not something that is “core” in the 3.5 rules. Training is actually a variant contained in the DMG (pg 197+).

The scion classes were designed to follow the level progressions that have become the norm in D&D and to account for the inherent EL associated with increased power.
[FONT=Arial]They were also designed to be consistent with the player’s choice concept. If a player chooses to to not “embrace” the strengths of his PC then so be it- he will never be as strong or capable as he could be.[/FONT]

9

Treat it as a level loss. There are already rules for that. The use of scion class levels makes for a smoother transition this way then via use of LA templates.

10

At 10:59 AM 9/4/2006, Starmage21 wrote:

>>You cannot gain major blood abilities until you have 1 level of scion class.
>
>which doesnt make a lick of sense in the “fluff” of the game. A
>class level denotes training and effort to manifest those blood
>abilities, whereas in the books those abilities manifest innately at
>puberty(with the exception of some abilities which manifest at
>birth, such as Bloodmark). They take no training to use.

Ive never bought the blood abilities as character class game mechanic either for the reason you state plus a few having to do with issues of bloodline alone. A character who loses his bloodline is similarly weird to handle game mechanically, for example, and the setting itself is supposed to be "low-level" so using levels to express one of the settings basic properties seems the wrong way to
go. It works for other BR-specific concepts. Even prestige classes
(a subject that I personally find to be misused more often than used
well in D20) make sense for BR. But bloodline as a character class
doesnt really fit IMO. A template works better. A system of accounting for bloodline as if it were a part of inventory, the way characters might account for other permanent magical abilities that
they purchase, is the best fit.

Nonetheless, these arguments have been made before… The system of
balancing bloodline was subjected to a pretty rigorous review process
and voted on, so the majority of folks prefer it.

Gary

11

At 03:10 PM 9/4/2006, irdeggman wrote:

>>When a Scion relinquishes their Bloodline to a Successor, what of
>>that level? I suppose it becomes like a level of Paladin when his
>>oath is broken- largely wasted.
>
>Treat it as a level loss. There are already rules for that. The use
>of scion class levels makes for a smoother transition this way then
>via use of LA templates.

I could be misreading the
<http://www.birthright.net/member.php?u=5954&gt;Cuchulainshound`s
comment, but I think the point there was not how the situation would
be handled game mechanically, but that using character class levels
to reflect that loss is somewhat odd. That is, if one has a problem
with scions levelling up to use what was originally their innate
ability then one will have a similar problem with how the bloodline
as character class issue handles the problem of losing that
bloodline. The character had to earn experience and, effectively,
spend them on the class to learn to use his bloodline. Should he
voluntarily give up his bloodline its not just that power he gives
up, but the XP he spent to learn to use it in the first place. It
turns bloodline into a sword AND a skill rather than a sword
alone. To extend the metaphor, if you hand over your sword you
essentially also lose your skill at fencing as well. Should the
character regain his bloodline does he have to level up again?

Gary

12

So if the Vos Paladin of Haelyn NPC, Teodor, doesn’t ever use his blood abilities due to them being from the Azrai line, does that mean he doesn’t have any Scion levels at all??
Because if don’t use them, you can never “train” on how to call them forth.

Sorontar.

13

At 05:12 PM 9/4/2006, Sorontar wrote:

>So if the Vos Paladin of Haelyn NPC, Teodor, doesn`t ever use his

blood abilities due to them being from the Azrai line, does that
mean he doesnt have any Scion levels at all?? &gt; &gt;Because if dont use them, you can never “train” on how to call them forth.

Thats a very interesting question/situation because it does point out a few dynamics of Azrais bloodline that should be
addressed. Azrais bloodline as described in Teodors description
and in a couple other places of the original BR materials is
inherently corrupting. I dont know where this is reflected anywhere in the existing materials other, perhaps, than in the likelihood of Azrais bloodline to corrupt that of other scions who commit
bloodtheft. However, the effect of awnsheghlien transformation is
another example of how that dynamic can play itself out, as are some
of the indications that those of Azrais bloodline are constantly tempted (read: forced alignment shift) by their bloodline. In Teodor the Unlikely Paladins case, I`d suggest that the issue is really
more a matter of that last. That is, as he levels up he must resist
the temptation to become evil that his bloodline directs him
towards. He would, therefore, lose his paladinhood not just by using
his blood abilities, but because his bloodline itself corrupts him over time.

Its debatable whether using his blood abilities or not would increase the corrupting effect of his bloodline, but off the cuff I think that "yes" is the most likely response most folks would give. Its such a mainstay of fantasy/sci-fi that it fits right into
the concept.

In any case, here`s the table/system I use for this
issue. Characters with the blood of Azrai must make a Will save when
they level up to determine whether their bloodline has corrupted
them. The DC of that save is their target character level plus any
of the modifiers listed below:

TABLE 5: CORRUPTION CHECK MODIFIERS
Modifier Condition
+1 For two levels taken (voluntarily or involuntarily) in the
awnshegh character class.
+1 Each BP spent on the Bloodform blood ability.
+1 If you have any of the following “signature” blood abilities
of Azrai: death touch, fear, regeneration, touch of decay, wither
touch. This modifier is cumulative for each of those blood abilities
you have.
+2 If you became an awnshegh as the result of bloodtheft (ie.
have the awnshegh template.)
+2 If you have taken the Major Transformation feat.
+1 Characters alignment is already chaotic. +1 Characters alignment is already evil.

A scion of Azrai who has earned enough XP to take a 7th level, for
instance, must make a DC 7 Will save to avoid taking that level as an
awnshegh. If that same character already has two levels as an
awnshegh, and the Fear blood ability then he must make a DC 10 check.

Failing this check means you must take a level in the awnshegh
character class rather than in a character class of your choice, or
your alignment changes one step towards chaotic evil. That is, a
lawful good character becomes either lawful neutral or neutral
good. Whether to take an awnshegh level, change alignment or what
the alignment change will be is the players choice as long as such an alignment change is possible. A scion of Azrai who is already chaotic evil must take an awnshegh level if he fails this check upon leveling up. In some cases (and with the DMs approval) your
alignment may change to one that is based on the theme of your
transformation. An alignment change based upon an awnsheghlien theme
can never be one of the good alignments. If you fail this check by 5
or more you must both take a level in the awnshegh character class
and your alignment changes one step towards chaotic evil.

Hope that makes some sense,
Gary

14

This is just another example of how “well” the 2nd ed rules worked. Per the rules Vos could not be paladins (only Anuireans and Khinasi could).

Also we need to remove from out thought process the concept of “training” as being an inherent part of level progression. In the 3.5 rules it is not and in fact the rules (core rules) are designed so that “training” is not part of them at all. “Experience” and “training” are different things and not intertwined in the core rules - as I pointed out there are variant rules to cover how the two can be tied together though.

There are several possibilities here.

It is never mentioned as to “how” he got his bloodine.

Did he start with one and then have it courrupted by bloodtheft? {He is described as being dedicated to destroying awnies}

Did he gain his bloodline from bloodtheft? {Another pretty viable option}

Was he born with his Azrai bloodline? {Probably the least possible due to how the Vos are described, how they “transfer bloodlines to the worthy” and how a paladin of Haelyn would be so out of place in the Heartless Wastes that he would most likey have had his bloodline “offered” up to someone more worthy.}

Now using BRCS mechanics he can have either 1 level of scion class or not.

If he had no levels of scion bloodline then he would be limited to 2 blood abilities (both minor). Which would knock down his resistance (major) to resistance (minor). If he did have 1 level of scion class he would have the blood abilities as listed. Both option are viable and play out only slightly different game wise.

Scion class levels give certain benefits. Access to higher than minor blood abilities, bonus HP if a regent (not applicable to this PC). Bonus class always skills, regent benefits (if used) {again not applicable to this NPC}, etc. In the case of this NPC IMO it better fits if he doesn’t ahve any scion class levels.

Now remember that the entirety of game mechanics in 2nd ed was different than those of 3.5 so those must be kept in mind when looking at things. That is an overall picture of how things interrelate and function must be kept in mind. The 3.5 rules are so inherently tied together that if one house-rules one aspect then there is almost always a domino effect on the other parts of the game that weren’t forseen - I have seen this happen numerous times when someone makes what they consider a “minor” tweak and eventually end up making large changes via house-rules to maintain the “balance” of the game.

This problem didn’t exist in 2nd ed because the entire system (2nd ed) was not balanced at all.

15

Kudos to irdeggman, here. Guys, check up on the DMG for a moment: there is a whole chapter dedicated to how should a DM reflect any demands for training, making obvious how levels (NOT Hit Dice) denote an increase in the character’s experience and overall power, unlike Hit Dice, which denote toughness and general aptitude for survival.

16

(G-man- on the nosey.)

The test here is to take two identical Scions, recently blooded or no- one takes a level of Scion, one a level of… oh, Noble. Do the game mechanics reflect a good “feel” for the differences those choices should yield? Similarly with the Blood of Azrai, similarly with “losing/relinquishing” one’s bloodline.

And, then compare that with identical situations using templates, which imo more accurately reflect the cathartic change, (but their flaw lies with problems with ECL’s after the fact, how the “next” level is attained, etc.)

(And I can’t give my opinion, because the DAMN VERSION CONFLICTS WON’T LET ME OPEN THE FRIGGIN’ DOCUMENT! AAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGHHHHHH…)

Ahem. (Better, for now.)

I missed 2nd ed- went from AD&D into other games, and didn’t return until 3rd, but… from what I’ve seen and heard, I won’t disagree.

If the minority opinion can present a compelling arguement for why Templates are better than Levels… we’re still the minority opinion. The ONLY reason to change would be flaws, in mechanics or game-feel, that arise during play-testing. Short of that, as this is a consensus process, we can pursue this as an intellectual excercise, but can’t hold high hopes of changing anything.

17

This is just another example of how “well” the 2nd ed rules worked. Per the rules Vos could not be paladins (only Anuireans and Khinasi could).

Yeah, I think that’s a case of crappy editing, or maybe the authors trying to say, “Okay, we don’t mean /always/. Just, like, usualy.”-I mean, Khinasi not being able to be Paladins of Cuirecaen or Nesrie makes even less sense than the whole cultural cutoff in the first place. Especialy when there’re more Nesrie temple holdings in Khinasi than in Anuire! (I think. Its been a bit.)

Anyway, it was a dumb rule, and I’m glad its gone in BRCS. Sure, you’re more likely to find a Rujurk “holy warrior” being a Ranger dedicated to Erik, but a hard restriction always felt silly to me. Heck, I’d allow Goblin paladins of Cuirecaen(I’m probably spelling this horrible. Need to get my book back.), but perhaps this is because I’m a hippy.

18

That was also back in the day when D&D Core Rules blurred the distinction between pure “game mechanics” and individual “world flavour”. 'nuff said on that mistake. :cool:

19

Actually, templates are fine for the most part, unless you hit the ever-present obstacle: progression of power.

In 2e, power was entirely relative; most monsters have no ability scores what so ever, for example, which has given me quite a headache when I want to reiterate a 2e adventure book in 3e (a literal hell). Likewise, various issues crop up in this field as well: in 2e, you simply got the thing and POOF you got all the powers like that. In 3e, that’s what a template does.

You’ll probably wonder where’s the problem by now. Well, believe it or not, the greatest arises from gameplay: while templates are nicely worked out for NPCs, genetic traits or sudden transformation, it lends poorly to any character gaining any sort of power that does not somehow set him so apart from the party that he usually is removed or challenged due to this very change. Thus, Wizards of the Coast thought of a simple solution to the problem: we are going to build an abstract system that allows the acquisition of “monster” Hit Dice and Level Adjustment through the acquisition of levels in a “monster” class.

While this does not always help the world’s verisimilitude (in fact, it slightly degrades it, due to our view on the various mythoi), it lends a bit of realism: everyone has to “discover” his new capacity of action and/or reaction to properly adjust (i.e. use) his mannerisms. A work around to both problems is to grant the player a minor effect that he can’t control, or grant automatic conditions earlier. For example, Gaelin in “The Falcon and the Wolf” has the blood abilities to heal faster, as well as Divine Wrath (Anduiras bloodline). Had he obtained these abilities at some point in his life (for the sake of the argument), Divine Wrath is a better candidate logic-wise for a sudden manifestation, wherease faster healing makes more sense in terms of reduced effectiveness at lower levels to compensate for non-existence until one attains the proper level.

20

Also it is impossible to maintain balance between players when using LA templates and starting at 1st level. How would you feel if you could only have 1st level human fighter while your “friend” got to play a 1st level fighter at the same time (ECL 3). Both are 1st level fighters but one has the equivalent of LA template.