Ships?

[Justinius_ExMortis]

Alot of good points have been brought up through out this thread. Let me recap and reply.

1. 2.5 GB of production capability is an excellent balance for producing ships. Keep in mind that you can have all the production capability in the world and it doesn’t mean squat you haven’t the money to spend. Also allowing for a goodly sized port to be capable of producing Galleons is a godsend in so much as balancing rules and reason. As we all know, rules and reason rarely go hand in hand.

2. 30% to 60% mark up on selling a ship is not only appropriate based on you have doing the negotiating but also historically accurate. Ships were a must have in the ancient world for any coastal power and very could produce enough of their own to really meet the demand at all times. This of course drove the price up, high demand and low production always makes a mint, so to speak. When it comes to the ancient world no price is set in stone. Negotiation is half the fun when it comes to hiring mercenaries, master builders, and buying the various necessities of the realm. I play a guilder by the way, surprising isn’t it?

3. Magic users and crushing fleets. Interesting concept, how exactly do you suggest that a world of 2nd and 3rd level characters destroy entire fleets with a wave of their hands? You’re average BR campaign, unless you plan to go after the Gorgon is only going to range between first and tenth level. Considering the difference betwen spell area of effects and the distances involved in even ancient naval combat you’ll fine that few tenth level casters can really effectively do anything more than burn a few ships, the equivalent of perhaps a single hit on vessels caught in the Area of effect of a spell. Also, re-read control weather. A ship killer that spell is not. Storm of Vengeance on the other hand…but again, consider level restraints. Besides, what’s wrong with a really high level wizard standing on the cliff side, passing his steely gaze over the arrogant lords expensive fleet and teaching him a thing or two about interupting grouchy mages in the middle of their studies with something mundane like a war?

4. Ship killing monsters are extremely rare. Big undersea monsters, just like their land based couter parts tend to be blooded scions of Azrai, ex. the Sea Serpent. Besides look at nature, there are few ship killing sea creatures that are anywhere near the surface of the ocean and we’ve only recently found proof that the big ship killers of the deep deep sea actually exist.

That pretty much covers what I was thinking about. A powerful navy is hard to come by but is also a powerful weapon against any coastal province and only in rare circumstances is the coin ever wasted in the production of a powerful war fleet. As a side note, the Zebec stats need a serious overhaul.

Justin

“Stand before an army by yourself, folly. Fall before an army and inspire the thousands at your back, greatness.”

“Heroes; romantic, legendary, glorious…tragic. Better a farmer who dies old and in bed then a hero.”

[graham_anderson]

What about longships and their like they are klinker build and shouldn’t realy require a shipyard. Meaning the poorer rjurik and vos nations dont have to pay to maintain a shipyard.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by graham anderson@Jan 29 2005, 02:21 PM
What about longships and their like they are klinker build and shouldn’t realy require a shipyard. Meaning the poorer rjurik and vos nations dont have to pay to maintain a shipyard.

I have to disagree.

Sure we can just give away freebees but there is supposed to be some kind of trade off here. Long ships don’t require much in the way of a shipyard to construct. Pretty much a shipyard in name only. There is supposed to be tradeoffs for everythng done. The Vos and Rjurik weren’t much in the way of naval powers anyway so by tying up resources in order to make the small ships they do is a very reasonable thing to do. If not then every race will have very large navies and that is just not the intent or concept of BR.

[graham_anderson]

The Vos and Rjurik weren’t much in the way of naval powers anyway so by tying up resources in order to make the small ships they do is a very reasonable thing to do. If not then every race will have very large navies and that is just not the intent or concept of BR.

I think that the rjurik as seafarers and raiders have far to few ships and requiring a shipyard just makes it even more difficult. By making longships and other klinker built ships not require a shipyard a rjurik nation could build a ship when they want one something quite realistic. You could make it that you need certain knowledge to do it so it is only available for the rjurik and vos. The rjurik should have a lot of longships but a fleet of longships are not a match for a fleet of galleys or caravels.

[Green_Knight]

Could someone pleas tell me why you need a “Shipyard” to build ships?

This sounds pretty strange - you don’t need Forges to make weapons and armor, nor do you need Horse Pens to recruit cavalry…

Would it not be sufficient with a province level requirement? Provinces 4+ are considered ports and should have the ability to build ships! Perhaps a province 7+ would be needed for the big ones, like galleons and zebecs, but for the rest?

B

[Angelbialaska]

I personally feel that shipyards and ports should be free too, automatically gained when you reach a level 4 province. It would relieve some of the harder hit provinces of their money trouble.

Maybe have ports being something that can be constructed in lower level provinces, and pay upkeep there, but when you reach a level 4, the shipyard and port can cover its own costs?

[Green_Knight]

Originally posted by Angelbialaska@Jan 30 2005, 05:09 PM
Maybe have ports being something that can be constructed in lower level provinces, and pay upkeep there, but when you reach a level 4, the shipyard and port can cover its own costs?

That is exactly how I do it, and it works well enough! Let’s try to keep the number of structures needed to do stuff at a minimum - it reminds me too much of computer games I’ve played in the past.

B

[graham_anderson]

Larger ships galleons in particular needed shipyards due to their size and the difficultys of constructing them. Longships and other klinker built ships didn’t require a shipyard. An example being somtimes to make a galleon they would dam up part of a river dry it out and built the galleon in a large frame then when the ship was ready they would break the dam letting in the water to float the ship which is no small task and the ship yards in britain were large as you needed a wide veriaty of craftsmen. On the other hand my neighbour in shetland makes klinker built boats and he does it on his own it doesn’t take very long and he doesn’t need any other workers to help him. This is partly a matter of scale but also of the techniques used in the construction.

There were few places that could make a galleon in britain. So I can see a place for a shipyard for making larger ships and non klinker built ships. I dont mind the port either with it being more than a bit of fishing and a few trade ships and more of a trade hub or militery base. The ports should be covered by taxes on the trade routes it generates.

[irdeggman]

From Rjurik Highlands:
Total navies: 1 Knarr, 5 Longships

Halskapa
1 Knarr, 1 Longship

Rjuvik
1 Longship

Svinik
1 Longship

Hogunmark
1 Longship

Hjolvar
1 Longship

Trade Routes:
Skapa Hjarring and Seasedge (sea trade route)
Skapa Hjarring and Anuire (sea trade route)
Yvarre and Nolien (sea trade route)
Leivika to Southern Anuire* (sea trade route)
Djaalfund and the Brecht Lands* (sea trade route)
Hjolvar* and Kvigmarheim (sea trade route)
*Specific location not listed in Rjurik Highlands

No documented land trade routes.

From Tribes of the Heartless Wastes:
Total Navies: 5 Drakkars, 7 Longships, 1 Zebec

Melyy
1 Longship

Yeninskiy
3 Drakkars, 1 Zebec, 2 Longships

Velenoye
2 Drakkar, 3 Longships

Zoloskaya
1 Drakkar, 1 Longship

No documented trade routes (land or sea)

So pretty much in the 2nd ed material neither the Rjurik nor the Vos were much in the way of sea powers – and the Vos’ acquisition of the Zebec was pretty obviously from raiding and piracy. Now allowing “free” ships just sort of bypasses the power structure of the 2nd ed material. Heck looking over the maps the level 4 coastal provinces in Rjurik were mostly plains and mtns (not many trees there) while the Vos had other issues.

Things I see changing or conceptually how they should be IMO:

We need to restore the 2nd ed rule that a coastal province can support as many sea trade routes as it can land trade routes. {Helps with places like Ilien that need the income.}

A coastal province with a rating of 4 (or more) can serve as a port but not a seaport. A port counts as a place where ships can embark and debark, troops can land, etc. But maintenance and extra income is non-existent in an undeveloped port. An undeveloped port can support a number of ships equal to its province rating in total cargo and troop capacity (add the two together) at a given time.

A seaport (or developed port that counts as an asset) and is necessary to have any sea trade routes. A developed port has a built up infrastructure designed to move cargo and ship it out. Developed ports also have sufficient infrastructure to provide for minor routine maintenance on ships. {IMO this developed port is significant, because it gives a target for raiding and destroying thus reducing the economy of a province. Historically how many times were ports burned to the ground and thus wrecking havoc on the country’s economy or to prevent their falling into the hands of the enemy? If this isn’t done then there is no incentive for raiding, pillaging and burning a port since it automatically springs back to life regardless of what happens.} A developed port can support a number of ships equal to 10 times its province rating in total cargo and troop capacity (add the two together) at a given time.

A shipyard is necessary to construct certain types of ships. Others can be constructed in a port (developed or undeveloped). Ships that have a missile rating, an attack rating (due to ramming), a combined cargo and troop capacity of 3GB or more requires a shipyard of the appropriate level to support construction. A shipyard is also required to make any improvements to a ship (for example the result of training, research, etc.) or repair more than 1 point of hull damage. A shipyard adds its rating to the province rating to determine the number of ships that can be supported at that port (see above). {I’d like to impose an additional level that specifies if it has a troop rating (i.e., bunks). But that would entail doing some other things like changing capacities for certain ships to a cargo rating or a bunk rating (but not both) – this is different than the 2nd ratings but makes more sense IMO. This is because if a ship can support a single bunk that means it can carry a unit of troops which is roughly the equivalent of 200 well equipped men, that is just no longer a simple ship, IMO. Cargo can very based on what is being carried but people take up so much room regardless. This might not be worth the effort of detail to do though and may simply just end up cluttering up the system.}

Increase construction capability of shipyards to less than 2.5 times the shipyard level. Although a case could be made for making this 3 times instead, specifically to address Zebecs.

Allow an option to build up a shipyard to exceed the province rating, albeit at an increased cost (and higher maintenance cost since it is similar to raising a province’s level above its normal level of self-support). Perhaps something along the lines of 50% increase in build and maintenance costs per level above the province level with a limit of 2 above.

[graham_anderson]

So pretty much in the 2nd ed material neither the Rjurik nor the Vos were much in the way of sea powers – and the Vos’ acquisition of the Zebec was pretty obviously from raiding and piracy. Now allowing “free” ships just sort of bypasses the power structure of the 2nd ed material. Heck looking over the maps the level 4 coastal provinces in Rjurik were mostly plains and mtns (not many trees there) while the Vos had other issues.

The rjurik are mentioned as skilled seamen and raiders. I amn’t advocating free ships but that klinker guilt ships do not require a shipyard. I would be happy with them requiring a port to construct instead.

[irdeggman]

Are you sure you are not talking about the Vos?

Rjurik Highlands pg 4 “The Rjuvan were a tough, semi-nomadic race who lived in the wild forests and plains of Aduira, honing their skills as herdsmen, hunters and warriors. Though proud of their ancient lands and reluctant to leave them, the threat of the Shadow forced them to migrate north away fro the growing danger.”

{About their ancestry before resettling in the Highlands}.

Pg 11 “Coastal-dwelling Rjurik live in small communities of no more than a hundred individuals. They make their living as fisherfolk, venturing out into the sea in knars or other small fishing vessels with nets to bring in great hauls of hake, cod, and salmon from the frigid waters of the tael Firth and the Sea of Storms. . .”

Pg 13 “ Rjurik are honorable warriors who favor honest conflict between individuals over massive, bloody warfare.” {Doesn’t sound like the definition of skilled raiders to me.}

I can’t find the quote I saw this morning but it basically said that the Highlands had the largest stretch of coast in Anuire but essentially had a non-existent naval force.

I tend to have problems with Rjurik building any large quantity of ships since it involves the felling of trees in order to do so. Being as close to nature and preservationists as they are it seems just not quite right for them to build shipyards and the like or to rely on deforestation in order to make a living. Another reason that, IMO, there are a relatively low number of guilds in the Highlands.

There is a big difference between being skilled fisherman and skilled seamen. Fisherman generally dealing with smaller vessels and fewer crew and likewise not dealing with large storms and the like.

[Thomas_Percy]

Originally posted by irdeggman@Jan 31 2005, 11:41 PM
I tend to have problems with Rjurik building any large quantity of ships since it involves the felling of trees in order to do so. Being as close to nature and preservationists as they are it seems just not quite right for them to build shipyards and the like or to rely on deforestation in order to make a living.

To be a nature keeper doesn’t mean to negate law of the nature.
If keepers of the nature can’t cut trees, they can’t hunting too. And the birds can’t build a nests from the twigs & stalks of grass.
Imho to be a keeper of the nautre means to obey they laws, use it (even hunt) to live.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Thomas_Percy+Feb 1 2005, 06:03 AM–></div><table border=‘0’ align=‘center’ width=‘95%’ cellpadding=‘3’ cellspacing=‘1’><tr><td>QUOTE (Thomas_Percy @ Feb 1 2005, 06:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id=‘QUOTE’> <!–QuoteBegin-irdeggman@Jan 31 2005, 11:41 PM
I tend to have problems with Rjurik building any large quantity of ships since it involves the felling of trees in order to do so. Being as close to nature and preservationists as they are it seems just not quite right for them to build shipyards and the like or to rely on deforestation in order to make a living.

To be a nature keeper doesn’t mean to negate law of the nature.
If keepers of the nature can’t cut trees, they can’t hunting too. And the birds can’t build a nests from the twigs & stalks of grass.
Imho to be a keeper of the nautre means to obey they laws, use it (even hunt) to live. [/b][/quote]
There is a difference between taking what you need to survive and exploiting the land.

Anything that borders on deforestation (used in this context I refer to wide spread, not clearing out some forests to make small areas for animal husbandry (raising) or small scale farming) is something that Erik would definitely frown on. The reason that the elves didn’t immediately attack the Rjurvan is that they cared for the land, but the text goes on to describe that “they were humans though” and then came the war.

Clearing out sufficient forests to make a shipyard and construct ships has crossed the line, IMO. Clearing enough trees to make small fishing boats is another matter entirely.

Would a druid allow a group of creatures to clear out a large area of forest in order to make large buildings and structures (developed ports, shipyards, large scale ormass produced vessels)? Would a druid allow a clearing of some area of forests in order to either thin it out or to start some form of agriculture?

The intent is probably the key factor here. Since druids are the keepers of the law in the Highlands that is the real deciding factor in how things are perceived as a culture.

[ConjurerDragon]

irdeggman schrieb:

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> irdeggman wrote:

> Are you sure you are not talking about the Vos?

>Rjurik Highlands pg 4 “The Rjuvan were a tough, semi-nomadic race who lived in the wild forests and plains of Aduira, honing their skills as herdsmen, hunters and warriors. Though proud of their ancient lands and reluctant to leave them, the threat of the Shadow forced them to migrate north away fro the growing danger.”

>{About their ancestry before resettling in the Highlands}.

>Pg 11 “Coastal-dwelling Rjurik live in small communities of no more than a hundred individuals. They make their living as fisherfolk, venturing out into the sea in knars or other small fishing vessels with nets to bring in great hauls of hake, cod, and salmon from the frigid waters of the tael Firth and the Sea of Storms. . .”

>Pg 13 “ Rjurik are honorable warriors who favor honest conflict between individuals over massive, bloody warfare.” {Doesn’t sound like the definition of skilled raiders to me.}

>I can’t find the quote I saw this morning but it basically said that the Highlands had the largest stretch of coast in Anuire but essentially had a non-existent naval force.

>I tend to have problems with Rjurik building any large quantity of ships since it involves the felling of trees in order to do so. Being as close to nature and preservationists as they are it seems just not quite right for them to build shipyards and the like or to rely on deforestation in order to make a living. Another reason that, IMO, there are a relatively low number of guilds in the Highlands.

>

There are a few hints that the Rjuven are good seafarers.

The 2E Atlas of Cerilia on the back gives a map where the Rjuven did not

cross the straits of Aerele on land, but crossed the Tael Firth, the Sea

of Storms when moving from Aduria - not a small task with a whole

population of women and children. The Vos however DID use the straits

just like the Andu and crossed only a very narrow body of water.

Like the Brecht and unlike the Anuireans the Rjurik actually have

Marines as a 2E warcard so they have a unit skilled in fighting onboard

a ship.

Why do you imply deforestation to build ships? They would of course not

completely chop down an entire wood (just as the small story in the

Rjurik Highlands book warns to do!) but sparingly chop down trees and

immediately plant new seedlings so that (unlike in Alamie) the forest

will not vanish but will regrow.

Guilds also need not live on deforestation - a guild represents anything

that makes money so they could gather wild strawberries, or the rare

herbs mentioned in the “King of the Giantdowns” book

Navigating the Sea of Storms without a sextant (which only the Brecht

have) is no easy task even for fisherman. It is not far from there to

our own Vikings, to Raiders (the whole country of Rjuvik is populated by

ex-searaiders).

bye

Michael

[Osprey]

I think the Rjurik regents having small standing fleets makes sense: if they are raiders, they don’t need the kinds of fleets necessary for conquest, only for hit-and-run raids. 1-3 longships is big enough for a raiding fleet, and on par with early Viking raids in Earth’s history. Making a ship here and there shouldn’t lead to widescale deforestation; building a large invasion fleet capable of carrying an entire army is a different matter. Good reason why there aren’t any large standing Rjurik fleets.

Historically, I believe there was some large-scale deforestation of Scandanavia in the later Viking era, because they went from small-scale raiding to large-scale conquest as the Vikings grew fat on their earlier successes. If we maintain a comparison between Rjurik and the early Vikings, though, things seem to correlate fairly well. The reality may be that the Druids’ power and the nature-reverence of Erik restricts the possible ambitions of Rjurik jarls and kings in expanding their raids to full-scale invasion.

As far as shipyards go, I think it’s important to maintain an across-the-board rule for ship-building and shipyard requirements. As longships are pretty cheap, the shipyard requirements will be quite low, and mainly represent the most basic of facilities: skilled labor and necessary raw materials, and the additional costs of gaining these resources with minimal ecological impact. Seems pretty reasonable IMO.

Osprey

[irdeggman]

The Rjurik are more closely based on the Celts than the Scandavians and Norse. hence the importance of bards and druids to their culture.

There is nothing written to imply that the Rjurik are in fact raiders, while the Vos on the contrary thrive on taking what they want.

Combine this fact (and the text I have cited - nothing implied here and definitely not based on art work) with the absolute lack of any naval forces in the Highlands it is pretty obvious they are not a naval force in any way shape or form.

The Rjurik have the absolute smallest navy of any land in Anuire and that is by far. The next closest are the Vos and they ahve more than double the Rjurik fleet.

Again being good fishermen doesn’t make them good naval miltary. I am at a loss to explain the marine unit, but there are a number of other inconsistencies in the 2nd ed products and that is a single error, regardless as to how many crdss were printed.

[The_incredible_edibl]

It might be an issue of miscommunication between the designers or simply the editor was sloppy.

[ConjurerDragon]

“irdeggman” <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> schrieb:

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> irdeggman wrote:

> The Rjurik are more closely based on the Celts than the Scandavians and Norse. hence the importance of bards and druids to their culture.

> There is nothing written to imply that the Rjurik are in fact raiders, while the Vos on the contrary thrive on taking what they want.

Except again for example the 2E warcard with “Rjuvik Raiders” after I already mentioned the Rjurik Marines warcard.

Or the passage on p. 25 of the “Rjurik Highlands” about the jarldom of Rjuvik “…Fulgar the Bold roamed the land, preying on merchants and travelers, and wandering the oceans, leading a small fleet of sea reavers in raids on mercantile shipping and coastal villages in Rjurik and Anuirean Kingdoms…” and mentions later “…items gained through illegal raids on other kingdoms…”

Then in the Players Secrets of Stjordvik (p. 8) who mention raids by Rjuvik both over land and boarded on their longships for attacks on Hollenvik. The Jarl of Yvarre once raided with 6 Longships and was defeated by Stjordvik defences aided by an Anuirean merchantman armed with ballistae.

And even “aviking” is mentioned in that Fulgar (of Rjuvik) officially forbids the raiding (and is not really successfull doing so) to raise his status and allow him to establish trade. So I would say that, as has been mentioned more than once, the Rjurik as any other human nation, are not based on one culture alone, neither Celt nor Vikings, but are an amalgam who might use elements of both cultures and that raiding exists.

bye

Michael

[Osprey]

The Rjurik are more closely based on the Celts than the Scandavians and Norse. hence the importance of bards and druids to their culture

Except Rich Baker has explicitly said that the Rjurik are most strongly based on the Norse, as their nomenclature (personal & place names, lords called jarls, etc.) also suggests.

Druids and nature reverence seem to be primarily Celtic in flavor, I agree there.
Bards are Skalds in Rjurik, a specifically Norse name and flavor (skald is Old Norse name for poets in the Viking era). The more typical Bards, which ARE strongly Celtic-based, are far more typical in Anuire than Rjurik.

I don’t mean to be picky here, just wanted to put in a plug for how Nordic the Rjurik have always seemed to me. I still think the Rjurik as sometime-raiders makes a lot of sense, and honestly don’t see any great conflict between this fact and the tiny size of Rjurik navies.

[irdeggman]

Sorry to disagree while the names are closer to Norse the culture is very much closer to that of the Celts.

In fact the 2nd ed AD&D book “Celts - Campaign Sourcebook” by Graeme Davis published in 1992 (BR setting was published in 1995) absolutely has the Celtic culture almost identical to that of the Rjurik. Especially the role of druids and bards. In fact the book (a green cover one) had Character Gifts which were almost exactly copied in BR and translated into Special Dooms. Heck the Celtics Campaign Sourcebook had a tremendous influence on Cerilian elves also. Find a copy of the book and you will see what I’m talking about as far as the TSR stand on this issue. I really think Rich was talking about names and such since things were deliberately combined in order to make them unique for BR.

The biggest cultural difference between the Rjurik and Celts, which is closer to the Norse, is the role of women. The Rjurik “prefer” their women to tend to the young and stay at home. The Celtic women were the equal of the men and held similar status in their culture.

Another good RPG oriented source book is the Celtic Age by Avalanche press. Again very strong similarities can be gleened for the Rjurik.

The Norse were adventurers and discoverers, although they didn’t keep good records (or much of any for that matter). The Rjurik are home and hearth. Defend the clan first, fight second, but never back down from a battle if necessary.

The only thing Norse about Rjurik bards is the name. Traditional D&D bards are not based very much on the Celtic ones. Celtic bards were the keepers of the history and as such were protected in society they were honor bound to be neutral in matters and deliver messages in an exact manner - the Celts were an oral reliance society which is why we don’t have near as much information about them as we should and most of that is based on misconceptions. (Awful similar to the Rjurik bards). Again check out the Celtic Campaign Sourcebook for the “official” 2nd ed opinon of Celtic bards in D&D.