Temples, Alignment, and Paladins

Dungeons & Dragons The Royal Library
1

And keep in mind, that back then there was only one Haelyn temple, the Imperial Temple, and within the Empire it was the superior of faiths, and recognised as a governing religious institution of the Empire (like a State Religion in present realms). So I am pretty sure that Imperial Temple sticked with Roeles. Roeles were like earthly manifestation of their overlord, and their protectors from the day one.

And I don’t believe Emperors controled Temple holdings directly at anytime, though they had much influence within the Temple, and probably many of Roele’s house were High Priests (like younger brothers, etc.). But I am sure that Temple swore their allegiance and signed a writ of vassalage to the Emperor.

Probably similar scenario went for Guilds, ie. Imperial Guild managed the economy of the Empire, and again there were probably some of Roele’s blood that were Guild Masters, but Emperors never had any Guild holdings. Again they were most probably vassals of the Imperial seat.

And all landed rulers within the Empire were vassals of the Iron Throne.

All “court” Wizards swore their allegiance to the Royal (Imperial) College of Sorcery, the sole center of the legal arcane society. College of Sorcery was under direct sponsorship of the Iron Throne and swore the oath of vassalage to the Emperor.

What I am saying is that the Emperor is a single govermental body, and he never had Temple and Guild holdings let alone Sources, only Law holdings, colonial assets and lands before Godswar with Imperial City and some surrounding territory (Anuire province) remaining. But Imperial Temple, and Imperial Guild were vassals to the Iron Throne, as well as remaining landed rulers.

Emperors commanded Imperial Legion that was elite (praetorian-like) army, with a full support of the Knights of Haelyn. So no matter that main bulk of Anuirean military was commanded and mustered by various nobles, Imperial seat was never defenseless, nor easy to conquer either by mundane or magical means or through the diplomacy.

Besides not many nobles would turn against their liege openly, because they would go directly against their own right to rule their realm, as well as against their patron Haelyn. So plots and schemes were always present, but Imperial position of Roeles was never seriously endangered.

Till Boeruine started the coup with the help of Michael Roele’s older sister. But Michael dealt with that properly, though his sister made a pact with the Gorgon later, thus leading Michael Roele to his doom on the fields of Gorgon’s Crown, and leaving the Empire without a heir, which lead to fall of the Imperial line, and the Empire.

Slightly-Off Topic:

I never understood how Boeruine got away with this, I mean its a terribile stain on their name, especially now when the “myth” of the great Empire is something that makes Anuirean hearts swell with pride.

EDIT: Important!

Majority of these posts were moved from Avanil thread, and many were posted regarding the Imperial might and right to hold the Iron Throne even if Roeles had no recorded land of their own after the Godswar. Please take this into the consideration…

2

I disagree. People in the 15th century believed as much as anyone can believe that a real god made his will manifest in this world. Just because we are more impressed with the mechanics of spell effects doesn’t mean that they would be more persuasive than whatever evidence a 15th century figure might point to. Once you believe that your god makes his will manifest, you believe it, fantasy game elements won’t make it more believable.

Who in their right mind would go against a family directly related to the very god they called on in battle…and nearly all other things as well?
Anyone who

  1. thought that the ruler had betrayed Haelyn and lost the Mandate of Heaven,
  2. was also related to Haelyn and believed that in a family squabble Haelyn would side with him because he’s in the right (and everyone thinks they are right, its what enables action) or at the very least believes that Haelyn will stand neutral
  3. cases of 1, 2, or both of the above will be a significant portion of the troubles facing any ruler.
3

So you really don`t think that if the Pope could
literally cause Angels to come to earth and invoke the
will of an All-Mighty God…and not only the Pope but
Cardinals, Arch-Bishops, Bishobs and even the lowly
Friar…that the Reformation would still have come to
be and that various Kings would still have rebelled
against the will of the Pope?

Not getting into a religious discussion here really;
but I will stand firm that I whole-heartedly disagree
with you concerning the Roele family.

Where the various religions of the world can obviously
show scientific reasoning for the existence of an
All-Mighty, the primary tool for most religions is
faith.

On the other hand, we have men in the Imperial Temple
of Haelyn that can invoke fire from the sky and raise
the dead on a daily basis. There is little need for
faith in such a fantastical religion as this…no need
at all really when everyone accepts magic because they
have SEEN the magic.

I should know, because Im a Priest and excercise my faith daily...and wish daily I could SHOW those of little faith that what Im saying is SCIENTIFICALLY
true…like the men of Haelyns Temple and Roeles
family could by invoking the magic granted them.

So again…there is a HUGE difference between this
real world and the applications of faith and the
fantasy world of Cerilia where men and women can at
any time in their life “tempt the Lord” and expect to
see a Priest perform a miracle.

The primary difference between believing that an
All-Mighty is making their will manifest in the world
and SEEING that will being implemented beyond your
ability to explain is so vast as to be beyond
comparison.

— kgauck brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET wrote:

------------ QUOTE ----------
The idea of a Divine Dynasty is more realistic in a
Fantasy Game (if you can pardon the seeming paradox)
than in our real world.

I disagree. People in the 15th century believed as
much as anyone can believe that a real god made his
will manifest in this world. Just because we are
more impressed with the mechanics of spell effects
doesnt mean that they would be more persuasive than > whatever evidence a 15th century figure might point > to. Once you believe that your god makes his will > manifest, you believe it, fantasy game elements > wont make it more believable.

------------ QUOTE ----------
Who in their right mind would go against a family
directly related to the very god they called on in
battle…and nearly all other things as well?

Anyone who

  1. thought that the ruler had betrayed Haelyn and
    lost the Mandate of Heaven,
  2. was also related to Haelyn and believed that in a
    family squabble Haelyn would side with him because
    hes in the right (and everyone thinks they are > right, its what enables action) or at the very least > believes that Haelyn will stand neutral > 3) cases of 1, 2, or both of the above will be a > significant portion of the troubles facing any > ruler. > > > > The fact that every noble was with little doubt > invested by a Priest who belonged to the church of > the > Imperial Familys direct relation would be a primary
    facet in every mans thinking. The fact that the > Roeles had a True Bloodline no doubt meant that
    they
    were literally looked upon as near-gods at the
    least.

Did the Roele Emperors have land? Without a doubt.
It cant be overlooked though that religion played a > significant part in their rule and their early ideas > of "Manifest Destiny"...If Haelyn were the King of > the > Gods, why not should his own people be lords over > all > others? > > Religion no doubt played even more a role in the > affairs of the Anuirean Empire than it ever did in > the > Popes tenuous hold over Europe until the time of
the
Reformation Movement.

Not only did the Emperor rule as a Temporal Emperor,
but he was the direct relation to a God that was the
God of an entire people…and Im sure that is > exactly > how the various Temples to Haelyn taught it. Were > the > Catholic Popes one continuous family of decent from
Jesus himself would be the only way to compare the
two…and obviously they were not.

So I second the idea that once there were no more
Roeles to sit on the throne, it is little wonder > the > Empire has never recovered: the entire idea that > Gods > ruled the people was shattered and with so much > doubt > then in place there was no hope for the Empire to > survive. > > Thanks for the quote by the way, its always good to > read the thoughts of other people...who are you > quoting? > > > --- kgauck <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote: > > kgauck wrote: > > ------------ QUOTE ---------- > > Very true...they were most often figureheads, > until > > the advent of the modern era really...My point was > > only that a national leader can lead without > having > > lands...even in a feudal system. > > ----------------------------- > > > > > > > > In the modern era, vast bureaucracies can inforce > > the impersonal will of the state, which can make a > > figurehead appear powerful. But it is the inertia > > and raison detre of the organization that keep it
> > going, not the desires of a leader. Leaders who
> > oppose the bureaucracy can destroy themselves.
> >
> > “It must be considered that there is nothing more
> > difficult to carry out, nor more doubtful of
> > success, nor more dangerous to handle, than to
> > initiate a new order of things. For the reformer
> has
> > enemies in all those who profit by the old order,
> > and only lukewarm defenders in all those who would
> > profit by the new order, this lukewarmness arising
> > partly from fear of their adversaries, who have
> the
> > laws in their favour; and partly from the
> > incredulity of mankind, who do not truly believe
> in
> > anything new until they have had actual experience
> > of it. Thus it arises that on every opportunity
> for
> > attacking the reformer, his opponents do so with
> the
> > zeal of partisans, the others only defend him
> > half-heartedly, so that between them he runs great
> > danger.”
>
>
>
>

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4

I agree with Dalor, though I doubt that Priests practice their Divine Channeling that regulary. So probably most of people never see “Divine Manifestation” anyway. When Priest gives blessings, differs strongly from when he actually invokes Bless as a spell. No need to mention the rarity and special circumstances for powerful high level spells. Priest is a faithful servant and a guide on Heaven/Hell/World relation. He wouldn’t dare to mess with God’s plans lightly, so he will be very carefull with his prayers, rituals, and invokations.

Resurrection is a great example. Sure Gods grant such power to mortals, but if a God didn’t wanted someone to die, that someone wouldn’t needed to be resurrected in the first place. No need to mention Bloodline complication if one Scion is returned to life, and Bloodline is a form of Divine Essence. Very few Priests would be so arogant and/or foolish to try to undo God’s will.

5

I disagree. The pantheon is still made up of opposing factions. They are not viewed as one monolithic entity, but different groups seeking to oppose the other, with the caveat they won’t interfere directly. So a person dies, and a priest won’t raise them because a god wished the person dead? If it was Haelynite wishing to raise a champion, what is to say Haelyn doesn’t want him raised and Belinik sought to kill him?

Priests are the “hands” of the gods and do their will. It would be less arrogant/foolish and more them doing their part to ensure the balance is kept. If Haelyn (or whoever your god is) didn’t want the spell to work, then it won’t. That will be the test of whether it is against his god’s will.

6

Anthony Edwards schrieb:
> So you really don`t think that if the Pope could

literally cause Angels to come to earth and invoke the
will of an All-Mighty God…and not only the Pope but
Cardinals, Arch-Bishops, Bishobs and even the lowly
Friar…that the Reformation would still have come to
be and that various Kings would still have rebelled
against the will of the Pope?

Certainly :slight_smile:
One one part because it does not matter what the real pope could do - as
long as the people believed what he could do.
When someone living in a former century had the firm belief that the
pope and his clergy had the power to sent their souls to hell - in a
time where life was a misery and the promise of a heaven kept lots of
people going, then they did not need to actually see the pope summoning
an angel. Even a fire started from a random lightning bolt would have
been seen as “punishment for the evils of that village” because people
firmly believed that lightning was sent from god.

On the other part because those who rebelled/supported the reformation
are not the lowly peasants but those that in a fantasy world would be
nearly on the same level as the pope. Learned men, Clerics, Dukes first
not questioning the pope or the church, but the behaviour and seeing a
chance to claim more power.. Moral critizism of the leaders - even a low
priest of Haelyn might perform just as Martin Luther did.

“Unless I shall be convinced by the testimonies of the Scriptures or
by clear reason … I neither can nor will make any retraction, since
it is neither safe nor honourable to act against conscience. God help
me. Amen.”[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther#_note-20

On the other hand, we have men in the Imperial Temple
of Haelyn that can invoke fire from the sky and raise
the dead on a daily basis. There is little need for
faith in such a fantastical religion as this…no need
at all really when everyone accepts magic because they
have SEEN the magic.

And that irks me sind the transition to 3rd edition. I just loved 2nd
editions Birthright scarcity on Raise Dead magic. Perhaps a dozen
priests in all of Cerilia able to raise the dead suited my imagination
very well. Raising the dead as daily routine - bah.

I should know, because Im a Priest and excercise my > faith daily...and wish daily I could SHOW those of > little faith that what Im saying is SCIENTIFICALLY
true…like the men of Haelyns Temple and Roeles
> family could by invoking the magic granted them.
>
But they did not and could not. Because D&D assumes that a god grants
spells even to those that have slightly different views. Just as in the
current BR timeline different temples of Haelyn compete there could
always have been some disagreement between faction withing the former
united temple - and clerics on both sides of an argument could do the
same things.
> The primary difference between believing that an
> All-Mighty is making their will manifest in the world
> and SEEING that will being implemented beyond your
> ability to explain is so vast as to be beyond
> comparison.
>
>
No. The faith of nowadays man is limited by knowledge of nature. Where
commen men in former times saw miracles we see the laws of nature or
simple physics - so former men did see gods will manifest in the world
believing his will to be behind everything that happened.

  1. 32 ↩︎

7

In Godswar Azrai commanded legions of Demons, but when old gods were destroyed, Shadow World pulled them all in, including various Outsiders.

8

Strictly a comparitive statement…not intended
literally. I was simply stating that to be able to do
such things would have made a vast difference in this,
our real world.

— AndrewTall <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:

> btw, I am not sure where your comment on summoning
> angels comes from - as far as I am aware there are
> no deva`s / demons etc in BR, only Shadow World

creatures (who can admittedly stand in for either)
so the church shouldn`t have otherwordly minions,
> not that it really needs them with spell casting
> priests, paladins, etc.

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9

Ohhhh…the impossible task of arguing a Fantasy
Setting with examples from our own world. LOL

I suppose it will ever be possible to put forth any
number of opinions and stances on any topic.

If I had the time I would debate more…

but instead all I can say is: it is easy to debate
topics on which none of us have ever had first hand
experience…none of us has ever seen the Pope speak
with an angel any more than we have seen a wizard
throw a fireball. LOL

Endless conjecture is all that results. :wink:

— Michael Romes <Archmage@T-ONLINE.DE> wrote:

> Anthony Edwards schrieb:
> > So you really don`t think that if the Pope could

literally cause Angels to come to earth and invoke
the
will of an All-Mighty God…and not only the Pope
but
Cardinals, Arch-Bishops, Bishobs and even the
lowly
Friar…that the Reformation would still have come
to
be and that various Kings would still have
rebelled
against the will of the Pope?

Certainly :slight_smile:
One one part because it does not matter what the
real pope could do - as
long as the people believed what he could do.
When someone living in a former century had the firm
belief that the
pope and his clergy had the power to sent their
souls to hell - in a
time where life was a misery and the promise of a
heaven kept lots of
people going, then they did not need to actually see
the pope summoning
an angel. Even a fire started from a random
lightning bolt would have
been seen as “punishment for the evils of that
village” because people
firmly believed that lightning was sent from god.

On the other part because those who
rebelled/supported the reformation
are not the lowly peasants but those that in a
fantasy world would be
nearly on the same level as the pope. Learned men,
Clerics, Dukes first
not questioning the pope or the church, but the
behaviour and seeing a
chance to claim more power.. Moral critizism of the
leaders - even a low
priest of Haelyn might perform just as Martin Luther
did.

“Unless I shall be convinced by the testimonies of
the Scriptures or
by clear reason … I neither can nor will make
any retraction, since
it is neither safe nor honourable to act against
conscience. God help
me. Amen.”[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther#_note-20

On the other hand, we have men in the Imperial
Temple
of Haelyn that can invoke fire from the sky and
raise
the dead on a daily basis. There is little need
for
faith in such a fantastical religion as this…no
need
at all really when everyone accepts magic because
they
have SEEN the magic.

And that irks me sind the transition to 3rd edition.
I just loved 2nd
editions Birthright scarcity on Raise Dead magic.
Perhaps a dozen
priests in all of Cerilia able to raise the dead
suited my imagination
very well. Raising the dead as daily routine - bah.

I should know, because Im a Priest and excercise &gt; my &gt; &gt; faith daily...and wish daily I could SHOW those of &gt; &gt; little faith that what Im saying is
SCIENTIFICALLY
true…like the men of Haelyns Temple and Roeles
> > family could by invoking the magic granted them.
> >
> But they did not and could not. Because D&D assumes
> that a god grants
> spells even to those that have slightly different
> views. Just as in the
> current BR timeline different temples of Haelyn
> compete there could
> always have been some disagreement between faction
> withing the former
> united temple - and clerics on both sides of an
> argument could do the
> same things.
> > The primary difference between believing that an
> > All-Mighty is making their will manifest in the
> world
> > and SEEING that will being implemented beyond your
> > ability to explain is so vast as to be beyond
> > comparison.
> >
> >
> No. The faith of nowadays man is limited by
> knowledge of nature. Where
> commen men in former times saw miracles we see the
> laws of nature or
> simple physics - so former men did see gods will
> manifest in the world
> believing his will to be behind everything that
> happened.

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  1. 32 ↩︎

10

I certainly agree that if a priest could just drop a lightning bolt on an unbeliever’s head, heal the lame, etc, etc then the priesthood is likely to be even more powerful than in real life - although I seem to be outnumbered in the belief that mages will as a result be either hated and outcast by the church (as their power must be non-divine i.e. evil, and disproves the priestly I have magic therefore I speak for god argument) or that they will be a core part of the church (as clearly they are divinely blessed).

The game problem however is that if you make the churches much stronger than in RL they become absolutely dominant - facing down the pope was a major task for several English/British Kings despite the fact that the pope owned no land or armies, while concerns over ‘papist plots’ dominated British history for centuries after the split.

For a game to be interesting the church needs some power, but not so much that it can resolve any dispute at whim. That encourages a multitude of churches so that no one church has ‘absolute truth’, a pantheistic approach, etc, the additions of druids / elemental clerics who have power but follow no god, the removal of the core god focus, etc.

11

If the Pope can summon angels, and he declares the Emperor Louis the Bavarian to be excommunicated, but the Archbishops of Mainz, Cologne, and Trier, who can also summon angels, argue that the Emperor is unjustly excommunicated, and in the right, why should I believe the Pope over the Archbishops? What if the Pope has also fought with the Franciscan order, bans the Franciscans, and all of them, lowly friars, continue to benefit from the grace of God and cast spells and sumon angels, and the Franciscans support the Emperor. Further, the Pope seems to be taking directions on at least some matters from the King of France, and learned people, such as Petrarch decry the Papacy and speak of an Avignon Papacy?

There is nothing in the D&D rules for declaring that one orthodoxy is correct, and the other is false. There are rules that say that defying your god will cost you spells. But let’s be eccumenical and assume that Protestants please god as much as Catholics, and in such case both have spells, both summon angels, both have all the powers one would expect of functioning clerics in good standing.

Priests of Haelyn can be LE or CG. Both get spells, not only do they have different alignments, they can be expected to differ on the authority of priests over the faithful, the hierarchy of the church, responce to orthodoxy, literal interpretations of texts. We know that Fitzalan produced a significant theologiocal break with the Orthodox Imperial Temple, and both of them can cast Haelyn’s spells and win his favor.

I think ConjurerDragon did a great job describing why things we consider natural the medieval mind would consider miraculous and direct evidence of divine action manifest. So I’ll just add that the medieval experience with religion was not about faith. Faith is a modern invention to answer people’s need for a diety now that we can explain the natural world without recourse to divinities. The medieval world needed to explain storms and natural disasters, and the death of children, plagues, indeed anything out of the ordinary and many ordinary things, like death, that were important. These were explained by recourse to the divine.

One’s crops grow because God wills the crops to grow and feed us (there are Biblical texts which make this argument). Moderns believe that crops grow because water activates seeds which absorb nutrients and water then use sunlight to convert these into food, and grow according to natural laws. Its science. To the medieval the harvest was a miracle, and more so, the success of the harvest was a description of God’s favor. A poor harvest showed disfavor, a good harvest strong favor. Then recall we must work in natural disasters and disease.

As an aside, the landmark event that caused moderns to consider this issue in a serious way was the Lisbon earthquake of 1755, on All Saints Day while everyone was in church. To see a country’s capital slain in church no less, to see the earthquake tumble the city, fires consume the city, and then a tsunami overwhelm the city, is a grave crisis. The old world view attributed this to the wrath of God, but moderns argued other causes, from the congestion of cities (Rousseau) to the arbitrary fragility of life and death (Voltaire), to more naturalistic explanations that volcanos and earthquakes are controlled by as yet undiscovered natural processes (techtonics and vulcanology are still way off).

Using spells and class powers to heal people, summon angels (to keep with this example), and perform miracles is just a game mechanical way of recreating the ideas that the medieval era had of itself (directly, indirectly through its own fantastic literature, and more indirectly through our fantasy literature which is just an evolution of earlier fantasies). If people never thought that gods were real and made work in the affairs of men, we not play games that pretended that there were such gods.

12

But still, I cannot but get pissed off when people use fantasy Priest as a healer machine, or some spell slinger.

Like:

“Mommy, mommy I hurt my ankle! Don’t worrie child Priest will heal you with Cure Light Wounds, you know, the one that resurrected three times ur daddy…”

Bleh it’s so Forgotten Realms, yack Oo;…

Or even more lame, when adventurers (PCs) say; “yeah here is the gold Priest, if I die Ressurect me, and don’t try to cheat us; use the True Resurrection…”

><;

PS: Srry for the rant…

…

13

And this, as I see it, is the crux of the matter. In D&D worlds, wizards perform miracles which are much flashier than those of priests, without any need to bring gods into the picture. You can even be a member of the priest class and simultaneously a vocal atheist, since all you need to do is acknowledge some abstract idea as the inspiration for your power. The ubiquity of magic in D&D makes miracles much less religious. Turning water into wine would be a big deal in the real world, but something you can get done at the corner drugstore in D&D. IMO, in a world where D&D magic was real, religion would be a whole lot less persuasive (or at least very different in content), because its claims to the supernatural would be merely humdrum.

Ryan

14

Not really. Priestly magic would be hugely important to the common man. Check out the priestly realm spells, like ‘bless’ province. A village priest would give a village a much better standard of living if they could merely cure light wounds, or cure certain diseases, human or animal.

D&D magic is hugely expensive, but most religions who had temple holdings in provinces would be doing things for their parishoners that they could never afford as a service from a magic user. Priests in Birthright probably do more than any other class to prevent famine, and the other common ills of pre-industrial society than any other class.

Magic users, on the other hand, in a classic D&D sense, and as outlined in the game tend to be two-dimensional , introverted loners who are secretive, and who hoard their resources, and generally set themselves apart from the common man. Now they don’t have to be that way, and they generally aren’t in our campaign, but they sure can be by a straight-up read of the BR rulebook and the Book of Magic. Heck, even feudal lords tend to look out for their peasants as a matter of self-interest, while realm wizards want them to go away so they can tap into the magic of the land more effeciently.

I’d say they are mostly flash, with little real substance for anyone but themselves.:wink:

15

Not arguing for or against alignment use here, I enjoy many different types of RPGs and most have no good/evil law/chaos axis just posing a question concerning your handling of those player classes that require the “Alignment Mechanic” (The Pali being the most obvious example, but others do exist).

Do you install some “Code” of behavior, vows, etc.. or do you dispense with the alignment driven classes? I would be interested in hearing/seeing your mechanic/ Ideas on the subject. :smiley:

16

Hmm. I only ever used alignment as an NPC aide to indicate the general approach of people to dealing with others around them.

I used a skill and powers type system to design a code of behavior for cavaliers, paladins etc - you choose the honor code that you follow and how strong it is and get compensated for it in other ways (i.e. the paladin had the right of holy justice, was unlikely to be accused of most crimes, etc). The PC could of course ignore the honour code but that wiped out the benefits if people heard about it. The beefing of paladins and priests to compensate for being god bothered never made much sense to me as it countered a roll-play advantage with a role-play disadvantage - never a good balance.

That’s one reason why I liked birthright’s magic rare setting - I wanted something closer to Barbara Hambley’s works than the usual mage-fest, so I made both kinds of magic wielder (mage and priest) rare, and thus far more powerful when encountered.

The standard BR setting eliminates any priest without a set deity - meaning that only the chosen of the gods have healing miracles, etc. It also eliminates most wizardly magic, or makes it possessed only by ‘evil’ beings (elves, awnsheghlien). That double whammy puts the priesthood well on the road to being able to prove the holy word to the unbeliever…

Before the ‘elf=fairy’ lovers whine about the above comment, I’d note that human-elf history in BR does not encourage elves, and particularly elven mages, to be well thought of. The church was unlikely to encourage a more balanced viewpoint when writing the history books - the only other known mages aside from a handful of exceptions were the Lost - proof positive that all wizardly magic came from Azrai for most priests.

17

Considering both alignment and religion, both ideological questions, I think they remain important because ideology is important. People tend to act in consistant ways and these descriptions can refer to those guides. Now one of the key reasons that this thread assumes religious affiliation is because of the awe of magical power. I won’t argue that, but will offer instead that these are not multualy exclusive. There is a god of battle, so martial prowess is not nearly as much in conflict with religion as it often has been because warriors and priests find themselves in competition, at least not if you can be a warrior-priest. Likewise with arcane magic. Multi-classing makes direct combinations less advantageous (at least without PrC’s like Theurge), but there are other advantages to ideological affiliation.

The warrior is taught about meaning, norms, and rituals that support his role and conduct as a warrior. He hears about courgage, honor, duty, and the rest, and this ideology strengthens his resolve and determination. He learns methods of mental preperation, hears stories of past heroes to stiffen his heart, and learns rituals that keep the ancient wisdom alive and meaningful. Some warriors get so involved in this that they become sacred warriors (paladins) but for others its the ideology alone that provides a context for their actions.

Certainly a character could find their ideological source of inspiration from someplace other than the temples. The barracks might have its own values and purposes maintained by habits and songs taught from the veterans to the recruits, but that just amounts to a temple without the spells.

So likewise a wizard could ignore the gods and cast his spells as well as the warrior can swing his axe, but what the temples provide is a cosmology of magic, warnings of the dangers, especially of the seductive powers of the Shadow, and a code of conduct.

Its really just role play, and maybe the source of contacts, trainers, mentors, or apprentices, but an organization that can offer a worldview and back it up with power is going to remain a significant organization.

See also this post,

18

Then you would have loved my Paladin monarch of
Talinie who put the goblins of Thurazor to the sword
if they didnt get away during his conquest...well, only put them to the sword if they didnt convert to
the worship of Haelyn as espoused by the tenants of
the Northern Imperial Temple that is.

The doctrine “Conversion by sword” held very true in
that game…and I found as my inspiration the many
religious wars “in the name of God” that have happened
in our world.

It is my basic belief that no man is “Good” or “Evil”
ever…we are just a blend of both and thus neither.

— ryancaveney <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:
> ------------ QUOTE ----------
> A certain Italian once said something to the effect
> that: “A ruler should always strive to do good, but
> have the capacity to do evil when needed.”
> -----------------------------
>
>
>
> Exactly. A good ruler does bad things to those who
> try to do bad things to the people under his
> protection. IMO, saying “Oh, but that would be
> lowering myself to their level” is an admission of
> being unworthy to rule.
>
> The way I like to think of it is in the words of the
> Witch from Sondheims _Into the Woods_: "Youre not
> good, youre not bad, youre just nice. I`m not

good, Im not nice, Im just right." The job of the
ruler is to be right, part of which is punishing
anyone whose excessive desire for niceness
interferes with doing whats right. The fun part is &gt; that no one ever agrees on what right really is, so &gt; theres always plenty of gray area.

------------ QUOTE ----------
We even tried one game where Alignment wasnt used &gt; ----------------------------- &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I never use alignment in any of my games. Never &gt; have, never will. Kenneth Gauck is the only person &gt; who has ever said anything in favor of the alignment &gt; system that didnt make me recoil in disgust, but
even he has been unable to convince me that D&D has
ever made of it what he sees as possible, instead
relying on it only as a poorly-implemented
role-playing crutch for the weak-minded.

Indeed, given that the prototypical D&D campaign is
dungeon crawling, which is properly defined as
breaking into other sentient beings homes, killing &gt; them, and stealing their possessions, all on the &gt; flimsy excuse that they are inherently "evil", is &gt; the best example ever invented of Chaotic Evil &gt; behavior. =) Im perfectly serious – I just think
the irony is hilarious, too.

Ryan

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19

I hadn`t thought of it that way…good point.

The only counter I would have to that is that True
Wizards are very rare in Birthright…but anyone with
sufficient wisdom can call upon the Gods and be a
Cleric or Druid…anyone at all.

I`ve seen a ruler in Medeore demand that all
sufficiently wise men and women must be ordained to
the priesthood of Ruornil…something he had a hard
time implementing of course, but never the less it
proved in that game that clerics easily out-matched
wizards in general (realm magic excluded) simply due
to numbers. Just as the humans proved to the elves.

— ryancaveney <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:
> ------------ QUOTE ----------
> none of us has ever seen the Pope speak
> with an angel any more than we have seen a wizard
> throw a fireball.
> -----------------------------
>
>
>
> And this, as I see it, is the crux of the matter.
> In D&D worlds, wizards perform miracles which are
> much flashier than those of priests, without any
> need to bring gods into the picture. You can even
> be a member of the priest class and simultaneously a
> vocal atheist, since all you need to do is
> acknowledge some abstract idea as the inspiration
> for your power. The ubiquity of magic in D&D makes
> miracles much less religious. Turning water into
> wine would be a big deal in the real world, but
> something you can get done at the corner drugstore
> in D&D. IMO, in a world where D&D magic was real,
> religion would be a whole lot less persuasive (or at
> least very different in content), because its claims
> to the supernatural would be merely humdrum.
>
>
> Ryan
>
>

>
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20

This is a much bigger problem! A society with common priestly magic is NOT pre-industrial in a large number of important ways. Military life changes drastically, too: food creation and preservation spells render sieges impossible – you must take castles by assault, because the defenders will never succumb to starvation or disease. Mages who fly and cast fireballs make conventional armies nearly obsolete, anyway. A society with lots of magic is in many ways similar to a highly technological one, and it is these effects of the magic system which have never been properly considered. A social system based on non-spellcasting rulers with medieval armies and medieval castles simply cannot survive D&D magic. To keep the right flavor, drastic changes to the magic system are necessary to even attain some degree of suspension of disbelief.

Universal access to the priest class is in fact the single biggest demographic headache possible: there simply must be some mechanism which prevents people joining up, because otherwise every single peasant would be insane not to take levels in the class, precisely in order to gain access to the magic you describe. My solution in birthright is to make the same distinction between blooded and non-blooded priests as is made between blooded wizards and non-blooded magicians. IMC, you have to have a bloodline to be able to cure wounds or disease or any of the standard D&D cleric stuff – commoners can cast only illusion and divination, and the stat requirements for being able to do even that are tightened significantly.