> Well, what do we do if we have an unblooded elven wizard that is a regent? Can he
> cast realm spell?
No, you need Source holdings to cast realm magic, and you need a
bloodline to have holdings.
John.
“Once I was a lamb, playing in a green field. Then
the wolves came. Now I am an eagle and I fly in a
different universe.”
“And now you kill the lambs,” whispered Dardalion.
“No, priest. No one pays for lambs.”
- David Gemmel, Waylander
> Well, what do we do if we have an unblooded elven wizard that is a
regent? Can he
> cast realm spell?
>
No, only blooded mages can cast Realm Spells, and that includes Elves and
Half-Elves. Unblooded elven (and half-elven) mages can cast Battle Magic
spells, though, as can Magicians (at least with regards to the spells they
normally have access to).
On Wed, 04 Mar 1998 18:22:16 -0500 FL writes:
>Well, what do we do if we have an unblooded elven wizard that is a
>regent? Can he
>cast realm spell?
>
>
>
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>
absolutely not.
Karvenith
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no, realm spells require Blood
>
> Well, what do we do if we have an unblooded elven wizard that is a regent? Can he
> cast realm spell?
>
I think yes...though I seem to be all alone on this subject. I don't remember
where it was written but it says in one book that there are old ley-lines that existed
before Deismaar all around Cerillia. And at that time only elves could have any use for
them.
Just my 2GB.
Espen
On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, FL wrote:
> Well, what do we do if we have an unblooded elven wizard that is a regent? Can he
> cast realm spell?
>
I would rule no. He must have RP to do so and the only way to gain RP is
to have the essence of the gods in your blood.
Some others are more liberal and I allow an unblooded rulers to gain a
single RP a domain turn. This could be an acceptable alternative, but the
hopes of ever accumulating enough RP for a spell this way are nigh
impossible!
JSP
>
> No, you need Source holdings to cast realm magic, and you need a
> bloodline to have holdings.
>
Hmmmn. . .the 2nd part of this statement I’m not sure about; you need a
Bloodline to collect Regency from Holdings, but I don’t think you need a
Bloodline to have Holdings.
I could be wrong. . .now I’m getting confused.
Nap time. 
Various Replies on this:
> I think yes…though I seem to be all alone on this subject. I don’t remember
>where it was written but it says in one book that there are old ley-lines that existed
>before Deismaar all around Cerillia.And at that time only elves could have any use for>them.
I wish I knew where you read that =) It certainly would open up the possibility of debate.
However, when the gods were here and active, it could be thought that through their presence and
grace, realm spells and powers were granted. Much like in other AD&D lines.
>Hmmmn. . .the 2nd part of this statement I’m not sure about; you need a
>Bloodline to collect Regency from Holdings, but I don’t think you need a
>Bloodline to have Holdings.
>I could be wrong. . .now I’m getting confused.
As the game exists, all NPCs with holdings or regency ARE blooded. Therefore, it’s not too much a
leap of faith to say you have to be blooded to do so. In the interest of possibility, though, lets
consider what you’d need to do if you weren’t blooded. To take a holding/regency, you’d have to be
either granted it through investiture or through domain actions. Well, if you aren’t a regent of
some sort, you don’t have domain actions. So that’s out. However, Investiture is an interesting
possibility. Suppose a Blooded Regent were to “Invest” his holdings to a non-blooded. The essense
and all its benefits would be passed. So, then, what if a non-blooded character were to, through
force of arms or magic, be able to force this ceremony upon a Blooded person. In this case, I would
think all the holding, the blood powers, etc, would be passed on to the non-blooded (this also bring
to mind the use of the Tighmaevril).
As far as Realm Spells are considered, ONLY Blooded beings may gain Regency Points. ALL Realm
spells require Regancy to cast. That alone would prevent powers from being used. Not to mention
that you have to have appropriate Source Holdings, which are also beyond unblooded character’s
reach.
Strictly speaking, though, I would say non-blooded characters could exhibit strength in an area.
Force of arms, command of soldiers, illegal organizations, etc. These could possibly alter and sway
the balance of power. However, the mystical powers from the land, and the ties to the Blooded
beings, would never be within their grasp while they remain unblooded themselves.
Now, I’d like to offer this as a suggestion to those unblooded players or curious on the subject. A
powerful evoker or commander might be able to conquer an area through force of magic, arms, trade,
etc. Now, the land and it’s powers would not respond to him, but, these lands would certainly be
valuable to those of the blood. Perhaps, then, a regent could approach the unblooded with some
interesting options that could be explored. Such as:
Well, anyway, there's some food for thought. I am interested to see what other might think of
the possibilities.
Bret
>
>
> I wish I knew where you read that =) It certainly would open up the
possibility of debate.
>
Somewhere in the Book of Magecraft under Lay Lines it talks about ancient
lay lines that don’t need to be maintained and can be taped by any mage who
can find & control access to them. these are the Lay Lines of the
pre-Desimar Elves that he is talking about.
>
> As the game exists, all NPCs with holdings or regency ARE blooded.
Therefore, it’s not too much a
> leap of faith to say you have to be blooded to do so.
Hmmmn; this thread originally got started with someone asking about the
possiblity of a unblooded Kobold uniting the tribes and in effect becomeing
an (unblooded) Regent of a province or two. It was pointed out (sorry,
can’t remember by who) that this was possible, but that the “commoner”
Kobold would be at a severe disadvantage if a blooded person came around
and decided to try and take over, and that in such an event the unblooded
Kobold might be better off becoming the Lt of the blooded dude, even if he
had done all the work to create the realm.
Also, Cerilia isn’t all of Aberynis (sp?); on Cerilia where Blooded scions
are (relatively) common, they displaced all the unblooded rulers (think of
it in ecological terms, with the “fitest” pushing out the less fit).
Elsewhere unblooded regents are probably the rule rather than the exception
(see the BR Netbook for rules on unblooded regents).
A side question that has always troubled me & that you touched upon: Since
you have to be Blooded to collect RPs & cast Realm Spells, what did the
pre-Desimar Elves DO with these Lay Lines?
Could be that:
Pre-Desimar the world operated under different natural/magical “Laws”
and Realm Spells were cast in different ways (I.E. not one mage using
Bloodline Points to power the spell, but perhaps ritual Sorcery involving
teams of Elven mages, or Blood Magic (sacrifices to power the Lay Line. .
.don’t be so agast; if it’s good enough for Celtic Druids it’s good enough
for your nature loving Elves, too.), or just the power of nature if you
granola types prefer and don’t want to imagine your leaf-eaters with blood
all over their garments. . .
Using the “unblooded regent” rules or a variant of it, pre-Deismar Elven
Spellcasters could accumulate RPs at a reduced rate. Which wouldn’t be so
bad when you consider how much of Cerilia was covered in Old Growth Forest*
back then; so there was a lot more Source RP potential, and it didn’t
matter as much if only a fraction could be tapped. Now that the forests are
disapearing, even the Elves allow only Blooded mages to tap the sources,
because they have to get as much bang out of them as possible (I.E. need to
be more efficient. . .at least they learned SOMETHING from the humans,
then.)
*All capitalized to show just how much we respect you tree-hugger types.
G
Perhaps only “exceptional” individuals (and, say, Dragons) could use
these ancient lay lines. In effect they would have been “Blooded”, but
there’s no indication of anyone like that pre-Desimar.
Something else I haven’t thought of. There’s always a bunch of wacky
ideas that are possible. I think of thouse. Other folks will come up with
the practical ones.
Funny, I wrote this then realized there was an obvious flaw:
>>
that it would be worth an agreement with the unblooded where the unblooded gives up control of his
area
to the regent, only to have it invested upon the unblooded through the priest ceremony so long as
the
unblooded then swear fealty or vassalage to the blooded regent. Now, where the unblooded character
doesn’t have Blood Strength, he or she IS gaining Regency points. In turn, that character could
spend
the gained Regency Points (1) to get Blood Strength (1). They could repeat this process for a while
to
continue to increase it. In this, they go from non-blooded to blooded and also gain the ability to
use
blood powers and realm spells all through the efforts they produced during their non-blooded years.
Bret W. Davenport wrote:
>
> Various Replies on this:
>
> > I think yes…though I seem to be all alone on this subject. I don’t remember
> >where it was written but it says in one book that there are old ley-lines that existed
> >before Deismaar all around Cerillia.And at that time only elves could have any use for>them.
>
> I wish I knew where you read that =) It certainly would open up the possibility of debate.
The matter is discussed in the BoM, where they discuss ley lines
(chapter 4).
Darren
> 4) Something else I haven’t thought of. There’s always a bunch of
> wacky ideas that are possible. I think of thouse. Other folks will
> come up with the practical ones.
Hmmm, I could have sworne I read somewhere that the elves couldnt
and didnt use the ley lines prior to deismaar. They knew they were
there, even knew what a source was and such. However, they couldnt
use either of them. They were just like big mysterys.
I would say that ley-lines and sources were reserved for the use
of the gods. Perhaps Dragons could use them too, as you said.
(lore@tmgbbs.com) |/// Zzzzzzzzzzzz
Brandon Lance Quina (- -)
ICQ Number: 6809944 —ooO(_)Ooo—
Hmmmn. . .very interesting; obviously (IMO) something that would happen
fairly rarely, I think. But it does open up a lot of possibilities (Oh,
just for comparison’s sake, it will cost Aeric Boerune about 280 RPs [I
didn’t do the actual math, just rounded it] to regain his BL of 60. So even
giving someone he REALLY likes a BL of 3 is something extra-ordinary.
Far as Blackmail etc: I can see doing something like that with a blooded
scion, even a minor regent, perhaps. But if you’re gonna get Aeric Boerune
THIS mad at you, you may as well shoot for his whole bloodline (hey, you’ll
have nothing to lose; he’ll cut your throat for this 1st chance he gets. .
.)
>
> Perhaps a good debate would be whether or not a Regent could possibly
pass part of his very essence,
>
James Ruhland wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > I wish I knew where you read that =) It certainly would open up the
> possibility of debate.
> >
> Somewhere in the Book of Magecraft under Lay Lines it talks about ancient
> lay lines that don’t need to be maintained and can be taped by any mage who
> can find & control access to them. these are the Lay Lines of the
> pre-Desimar Elves that he is talking about.
> >
> > As the game exists, all NPCs with holdings or regency ARE blooded.
> Therefore, it’s not too much a
> > leap of faith to say you have to be blooded to do so.
>
> Hmmmn; this thread originally got started with someone asking about the
> possiblity of a unblooded Kobold uniting the tribes and in effect becomeing
> an (unblooded) Regent of a province or two. It was pointed out (sorry,
> can’t remember by who) that this was possible, but that the “commoner”
> Kobold would be at a severe disadvantage if a blooded person came around
> and decided to try and take over, and that in such an event the unblooded
> Kobold might be better off becoming the Lt of the blooded dude, even if he
> had done all the work to create the realm.
> Also, Cerilia isn’t all of Aberynis (sp?); on Cerilia where Blooded scions
> are (relatively) common, they displaced all the unblooded rulers (think of
> it in ecological terms, with the “fitest” pushing out the less fit).
> Elsewhere unblooded regents are probably the rule rather than the exception
> (see the BR Netbook for rules on unblooded regents).
I don’t know why many people think that unblooded regents would be
hard-pressed in becoming regents. Remember that possession is 9/10ths
of the law and whoever possesses the most armies and assests controls
the show! I can totally see an unblooded mercenary captain controlling
a huge portion of Cerilia, demanding obedience from all those little
blooded underlings who would have no choice but to obey or face
execution and/or loss of their bloodline. Just because you have a
bloodline doesn’t mean everyone has to kowtow to ya or treat you like a
freakin’ god!
Darren
>
> I don’t know why many people think that unblooded regents would be
> hard-pressed in becoming regents. Remember that possession is 9/10ths
> of the law and whoever possesses the most armies and assests controls
> the show! I can totally see an unblooded mercenary captain controlling
> a huge portion of Cerilia, demanding obedience from all those little
> blooded underlings who would have no choice but to obey or face
> execution and/or loss of their bloodline. Just because you have a
> bloodline doesn’t mean everyone has to kowtow to ya or treat you like a
> freakin’ god!
>
Brings up anothe question: Can a unblooded ruler (won’t say ‘Regent’
exactly) such as described here recieve Regency Points from Vassals?
Here’s my case for why that might be possible: we know that a Blooded
Regent, lets say who has a Bloodline of 25, and rules a Realm with a Realm
Strength of 30 (thus providing 30 RPs, of which the Regent can only take
25), that Regent can have a Vassalage agreement with another Regent; let’s
say in that Vassalage agreement the Vassal sends 5 RPs to the Overlord. The
Overlord then “nets” 30 RPs per turn.
So let’s say this ruthless dictator forces a bunch of blooded regents to
accept him as Overlord and become his Vassals; he requires each to send him
15 RPs per turn as part of the agreement. Does he recieve them?
>>
>> I don’t know why many people think that unblooded regents would be
>> hard-pressed in becoming regents. Remember that possession is 9/10ths
>> of the law and whoever possesses the most armies and assests controls
>> the show! I can totally see an unblooded mercenary captain controlling
>> a huge portion of Cerilia, demanding obedience from all those little
>> blooded underlings who would have no choice but to obey or face
>> execution and/or loss of their bloodline. Just because you have a
>> bloodline doesn’t mean everyone has to kowtow to ya or treat you like a
>> freakin’ god!
>>
>Brings up anothe question: Can a unblooded ruler (won’t say ‘Regent’
>exactly) such as described here recieve Regency Points from Vassals?
>Here’s my case for why that might be possible: we know that a Blooded
>Regent, lets say who has a Bloodline of 25, and rules a Realm with a Realm
>Strength of 30 (thus providing 30 RPs, of which the Regent can only take
>25), that Regent can have a Vassalage agreement with another Regent; let’s
>say in that Vassalage agreement the Vassal sends 5 RPs to the Overlord. The
>Overlord then “nets” 30 RPs per turn.
> So let’s say this ruthless dictator forces a bunch of blooded regents to
>accept him as Overlord and become his Vassals; he requires each to send him
>15 RPs per turn as part of the agreement. Does he recieve them?
>
Looking at it strictly from a rules standpoint, I would say yes, although
without the threat of physical punishment, any blooded scion worth his
bloodline would probably go back on the deal as quickly as possible. This
brings up an interesting question. Say that this scenario is true. The
unblooded individual gains regency points through the vassalage ceremony.
In order to increase a bloodline, the regent must spend regency equal to his
current bloodline to increase it by one. This could possibly be an
alternate manner in which unblooded Lts gain a bloodline by spending 1 Rp to
gain a bloodline of 1.
Going back to the Aeric Boeruine partial bloodline scenario, Aeric
Boeruine could set up a vassalage agreement (although the term vassalage is
not quite correct here, as vassalage in its historical sense indicates a
Lord - subject relationship, and in BR there are no such rules enforcing
this, or more to the point, a one-time regency transfer, instead of
vassalage) in which the “vassal” gains some regency and gains his bloodline
of 1 to “start him out”… Another Idea that just popped up would be this
could be a game mechanic for the ennobling of a commoner into the knighthood
by a ruler and/or granting him titular rulership of a holding or province
and setting up a classic vassalage agreement. Interesting point, I think
this could integrate a whole new game mechanic for the role-playing of
ennobling of a commoner and introducing him into the ranks of the Nobility.
Memnoch
>***************************************************************************
>>‘unsubscribe birthright’ as the body of the message.
>
> current bloodline to increase it by one. This could possibly be an
> alternate manner in which unblooded Lts gain a bloodline by spending 1 Rp
to
> gain a bloodline of 1.
>
I think your explanation is excelent, but brings up a game mechanic/game
balance problem in that it makes it somewhat easy for anyone to become
Blooded (albeit with a rather minor Bloodline, at least to start out). IMO,
that 1st BL point should probably be at a premium, costing much more RPs
than might otherwise be indicated. Otherwise the “commoner” Lts. and other
significant aides of any fairly powerful Regent would all become Blooded,
rewards for service or whatever, fairly quickly (through RP Grants). Or
perhaps it does only cost 1 RP, but takes an Investiture (I.E. a real
Vassalage agreement, no RP Granting). As all you Regents know, your time
(Actions) is often your most valuable, rarest commodity of all. . .
> Going back to the Aeric Boeruine partial bloodline scenario, Aeric
> Boeruine could set up a vassalage agreement (although the term vassalage
is
> not quite correct here, as vassalage in its historical sense indicates a
> Lord - subject relationship, and in BR there are no such rules enforcing
> this, or more to the point, a one-time regency transfer, instead of
> vassalage)
>
Speaking of this, there have in my PnP experience, often been “Vassalage”
type relationships where it’s the Overlord who sends RPs to the underling
(say, because the underling is given a fairly minor “fief” and needs more
RPs to acomplish the tasks set for him/her). This, rules-wise at least
(technically) makes the Overlord the “Vassal” in the arrangement, which IMO
is aesthetically distasteful. Just something I’ve been wanting to say. .
.as with most of my comments no real “point” to it. . .
.
On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Jim Cooper wrote:
> I don’t know why many people think that unblooded regents would be
> hard-pressed in becoming regents. Remember that possession is 9/10ths
> of the law and whoever possesses the most armies and assests controls
> the show!
I suspect Cerilian peasants are a little bit snobbish about this - they
don’t mind being ruled by someone with a ‘liitle spark of the divine’
because that’s the way that things are supposed to be. But rulers
without bloodlines - “Why they’re just peasants like us. I’m not going
to tug my forlock to someone who’s no better than me.”
> I can totally see an unblooded mercenary captain controlling
> a huge portion of Cerilia, demanding obedience from all those little
> blooded underlings who would have no choice but to obey or face
> execution and/or loss of their bloodline.
But not for long - the mercenary couldn’t use RPs to pay units, or
contest holdings. He couldn’t rule holdings up above 1, or agitate. In
the long run he’d be at quite a disadvantage.
> Just because you have a bloodline doesn’t mean everyone has to kowtow
> to ya or treat you like a freakin’ god!
Yes it does!
Not a monarchist then?
neil
>I think your explanation is excelent, but brings up a game mechanic/game
>balance problem in that it makes it somewhat easy for anyone to become
>Blooded (albeit with a rather minor Bloodline, at least to start out). IMO,
>that 1st BL point should probably be at a premium, costing much more RPs
>than might otherwise be indicated. Otherwise the “commoner” Lts. and other
>significant aides of any fairly powerful Regent would all become Blooded,
>rewards for service or whatever, fairly quickly (through RP Grants). Or
>perhaps it does only cost 1 RP, but takes an Investiture (I.E. a real
>Vassalage agreement, no RP Granting). As all you Regents know, your time
>(Actions) is often your most valuable, rarest commodity of all. . .
As far as game balance goes, the one time passage of regency IMO poses very
little disruption. Remember, that in order to do this “passage of regency,”
the Lord and Lt must both be at the ceremony of investiture and the
priest regent must be willing to cast the spell. If the Priest regent
refuses to acknowledge the grant of nobility that the regent is attempting
to accomplish, it does not happen. Secondly, the grant of nobility
establishes a bloodline of 1 (Tainted), which would gain the regent doing
the granting very little…he could have this newly arisen scion lord over a
province but it would be a waste to give him anything more than a province
>Speaking of this, there have in my PnP experience, often been “Vassalage”
>type relationships where it’s the Overlord who sends RPs to the underling
>(say, because the underling is given a fairly minor “fief” and needs more
>RPs to acomplish the tasks set for him/her). This, rules-wise at least
>(technically) makes the Overlord the “Vassal” in the arrangement, which IMO
>is aesthetically distasteful. Just something I’ve been wanting to say. .
>.as with most of my comments no real “point” to it. . .
Actually, I think the Vassalage arrangement in the Investiture ceremony
should be restricted to the passing of regency up the chain of command only.
No self respecting regent would want to pass his influence to an underling.
Think of the peer to peer insults that would take place and the loss of
status should this take place. Word would get around very quickly that the
“Overlord” is a “vassal” to his “underling” and in a role-playing sense
would have the “overlord-vassal” would lose lots of reputation when it comes
to diplomacy arrangements (penalties to the success roll) and other action
penalties when this type of arrangement comes to light.
Memnoch
>***************************************************************************
>>‘unsubscribe birthright’ as the body of the message.
>
>> So let’s say this ruthless dictator forces a bunch of blooded regents to
>>accept him as Overlord and become his Vassals; he requires each to send
him
>>15 RPs per turn as part of the agreement. Does he recieve them?
>>
>Looking at it strictly from a rules standpoint, I would say yes, although
>without the threat of physical punishment, any blooded scion worth his
>bloodline would probably go back on the deal as quickly as possible. This
>brings up an interesting question. Say that this scenario is true. The
>unblooded individual gains regency points through the vassalage ceremony.
>In order to increase a bloodline, the regent must spend regency equal to
his
>current bloodline to increase it by one. This could possibly be an
>alternate manner in which unblooded Lts gain a bloodline by spending 1 Rp
to
>gain a bloodline of 1.
> Going back to the Aeric Boeruine partial bloodline scenario, Aeric
>Boeruine could set up a vassalage agreement (although the term vassalage is
>not quite correct here, as vassalage in its historical sense indicates a
>Lord - subject relationship, and in BR there are no such rules enforcing
>this, or more to the point, a one-time regency transfer, instead of
>vassalage) in which the “vassal” gains some regency and gains his bloodline
>of 1 to “start him out”… Another Idea that just popped up would be this
>could be a game mechanic for the ennobling of a commoner into the
knighthood
>by a ruler and/or granting him titular rulership of a holding or province
>and setting up a classic vassalage agreement. Interesting point, I think
>this could integrate a whole new game mechanic for the role-playing of
>ennobling of a commoner and introducing him into the ranks of the Nobility.
>
>
>Memnoch
This does seem to have some basis. But it is also incredibly easy to abuse.
It is the part of 1 BP granting a Bloodline that worries me.
In this way, a Blooded character, over time, will be in a position to
enblood his whole court! If a character is actually willing to give someone
a bloodline, then I think the only ‘proper’ way would be through
investiture. It may well be a requirement that Knights be blooded after all.
Or they may not be blooded at all, perhaps having ‘superior’ knights and
knights of lesser status. But if this ruthless, unblooded dictator amassed
BP by intimidation (vassalage) then I think one of two things may happen. He
may have to coerce one of his weaker vassals to give up his bloodline. This
seems to me the most reasonable. As for gaining one through ‘raising’ it
using RP, I think it might be possible (depends on the DM), but I’d require
a vast amount of RP, say 100 to 200 just so that he might gain a 1 BL. Your
suggestion of 1 RP necessary to gain a 1 BL just seems too easy for me, and
easy prey for abuse.
Gandalf