What was Azrai's Problem, Anyway?

Dungeons & Dragons The Royal Library
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So, something Fizz said in another thread got me thinking, again. :smiley:

Exactly what was Azrai’s angst, anyway? Why did he feel the need to challenge his god-siblings? More to the point: what was his ultimate goal? What was he hoping to gain?

Presumably they co-existed (relatively) peacefully for untold eons. What changed?

It is interesting to note that Azrai is never mentioned as having a people. Was this the heart of the problem? Did he feel his siblings were “cheating” somehow? Felt they missed the point of being gods?

I am curious what everyone else thinks about this…

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Could be something like Melkor/Morgoth in Middleearth. Morgoth was actually one of the most power of the Valar, with creativity being their power and their downfall. However that didn’t mean that Morgoth worked well with others as that creativity allowed independent thinking. Perhaps Azrai had a similiar problem, in that they represented change (more so than the fortune from Brenna) and this didn’t work well with other deities if they were part of that change.

Just a thought. No evidence.

Sorontar

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So, something Fizz said in another thread got me thinking, again. :smiley:

Sorry… heh. Actually i’m not. I’m happy the boards are alive again. I love talking this stuff.

In the Midnight campaign setting, the ultimate bad guy is named Izrador. He is described as evil not in the way that an orc is evil, but rather that Izrador is Evil. The two are synonymous. Might it be the same for Azrai?

Azrai is the Shadow- there is an ancient connection to him and the schism between Cerilia and the Shadow World. So perhaps the conflict goes back that far? I need to double check some sources.

Or perhaps as Alfred stated in The Dark Knight, “Some people just want to watch the world burn.”

-Fizz

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Correct me if I’m wrong, but some source stated that Azrai didn’t start out as Evil, per se, that he was the god of knowledge and/or some other aspects (pride?, but that doesn’t make sense as a “portfolio”).

I’ve always have played it that Azrai has been playing the long game… he’s deliberately engineering events to change things. His motivations, however, have always eluded me…

Azrai is definitely responsible for the changing nature of the Other Side (Spirit World/Faerie World, etc.). Why though? Why is he doing that…? Could it simply be megalomania personified?

I suppose the simplest answers are the most easily acceptable…

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Re Azrai not starting out as evil, god of knowledge / pride? No i’ve not heard that one before. So i am skeptical.

I think Blood Spawn might have a partial answer to your question. On page 5, the block “When Two Worlds Were One…” discusses the very ancient history (or at least, the folklore thereof). Basically, the gods wanted stability, except for Azrai who loved change. This led to the schism and much of the relevant history.

Of course, loving change is not evil per se. Azrai is not just an unpredictable trickster, so there must be more to it than that. Maybe it’s up to the DM to decide, and it probably only matters for an epic-level campaign.

I’ve always liked the analogy in the books: the Cold Rider’s influence on the Shadow World being like a drop of oil spreading over a pond. Very evocative.

-Fizz

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I agree, it’s a great analogy. Methinks the recent history of this setting is, well, recent. Something had to be a catalyst. Gods being gods, timescale is irrelevant, so Azrai being a god of chaos (change) is… not the whole story. Otherwise, him changing things probably would have happened a long time ago. Plus, he doesn’t strike me as random. That was Brenna’s shtick.

It was probably when the gods chose to shepherd the human tribes. Azrai didn’t like that. The other gods did it because they grew stronger because of it (worship). Azrai saw that as a threat. Or, possibly, not to him - but to something important. Maybe he saw the end of time? Existence? Hmmm…

Another intriguing thought… :slight_smile:

I’m still also convinced with the notion that Azrai has also been playing his siblings… a lot longer than even the gods have realized…?

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Also, I’m quite certain there is source material that says Azrai didn’t start out as evil… now, where did I read that…? You’ll have to give me some time to remember that one Fizz… I’ll let you know when I find it.

Found it. It’s in the entry for the Viper’s Eye relic in the BoP. I just knew I read it somewhere, and that I could remember it, for any doubters out there… :slight_smile:

There’s more to Azrai than first suspected…

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So, going with the above, I suspect Azrai loved change merely as a means to an end…

Not, also, that, in that particular reference, I think Azrai is the one fighting against the change of making the Spirit World less mutable… so, he’s anti-change for keeping the constant change… lol.

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You guys aren’t jumping on this topic, eh? lol.

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Actually- i hadn’t realized you had edited your message with the Eye of the Viper reference. Nice find.

Interesting. The question is whether Azrai actually was a god of knowledge and pride, or just playing one on tv. As you said, maybe he is playing a very long game, and pretending to be a more benevolent god was part of the plan to sway the Vos from Vorynn.

So he wasn’t good… he just pretended to be as part of his plan. Maybe. Certainly the block from Blood Enemies suggests he’s always been about change and fluidity, not knowledge.

-Fizz

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Yea, I was wondering if my edit would get lost, so I posted another to bump the thread. :smiley:

I think it’s more… provocative… if Azrai actually changed… has a sort of poetic tragedy to it. I think he was good in the beginning, but became evil like evil usually happens.

But, as a god of knowledge, he presumably thought he was the smartest. And, I’m willing to bet he was better at (say) divination then even Vorynn was. Or, maybe not “better”, but just skilled in a different way, if that makes sense. Whatever the case, he developed the whole evil mastermind persona over eons of figuring out how things worked (again, God of Knowledge), while the other gods were content to remain focused on their strengths.

But, eventually, the gods wanted to change. Probably Basaia was the most perturbed about how things just didn’t always go according to the way she wanted things to go. Anduiras, for different reasons, too. Basaia, being the Goddess of Magic, began to explore ways to change that.

Azrai went, whoa, that’s not good. Couldn’t persuade them to change their minds, and definitely knew clamping down on the ever-changing was A Very Bad Thing. So, began plotting.

And then humans crawled out of the forest with their opposable thumbs, and the other gods went, “ooo, shiny new playthings!”, and Azrai said, “uh, they’re a step above apes, really dudes?”, and then Azrai saw that they gave his bros and sistas extra power, and was like, “Hey! That’s not fair! Where’s my fam?”, and the rest, as they say, is history. :smiley:

Or, something like that.

Anyone want to posit other theories?

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So, are you suggesting that maybe it was the other gods who favoured change, not Azrai?

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That is one possibility, yes.

I get the feeling that the old gods were like the Greek gods - relatable, made mistakes, etc. Certainly the new gods are human-like.

There is, of course, value in simplicity, and stating that the old gods, at least, were incarnate representations of their portfolios.

I’m very curious what you guys think, and discussing your ideas… how have you represented this in your game(s)?

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It doesn’t really come up in my adventures. Azrai was the Shadow, his legacy has been left in the bloodlines and awnsheghlien. The characters don’t care much beyond that, and i’ve not had any adventures where history that ancient was relevant.

Personally, i like him always being the force of change. I think it fits best with the description / lore and the connection to the Shadow World (as described in Blood Enemies). But it’s an academic issue in my campaigns.

-Fizz

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So… what’s he trying to change, then?

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I’m referring to his origins, that the original gods didn’t want to keep changing, except Azrai. Per the lore “When Two Worlds Were One” in Blood Enemies, the gods’ forms and nature were tied to the land; if the land changed, so did the god. Most of the gods didn’t want to keep changing all the time, so they exerted their will to stabilize the world. However, Azrai revelled in the change. It was this conflict that led to the schism of Cerilia / Shadow World.

The ever-changing nature of the realm, the Seeming, all fit well into Azrai’s portfolio: nothing is ever as it seems. If you take that lore from Blood Enemies as factual, then perhaps illusion, deceit, etc, is simply Azrai’s nature. He never wants anything to stay the same. So he doesn’t practice deception, he is deception.

As for now, perhaps he doesn’t like the static nature of Cerilia. A static, unchanging world where things are actually what they seem- that’s anathema to him.

Maybe. In my campaign this is all academic. :slight_smile:

-Fizz

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Yea, it’s interesting, isn’t it?

I still find it very ironic (and greatly amusing) that the God who valued the ever-changing nature of the world was fighting to keep the status quo (that of an ever-changing world). heh.

On a side note, I’ve always held the notion that the gods were/are just “regular” super-beings, meaning that they run the gamut of personalities and interests, etc., and that it is actually the mortals who worship them that assign and inform these “portfolios” to them, and… influence… them towards these domains.

In other words, their worshippers pay homage to a particular god for a particular reason, and this then informs that god’s strengths. It is, literally, a two-way street sorta of deal in that what the worshippers want from their god is what gives that god their strength and, in turn, how the god “rewards” his followers with what they are looking for from that god.

Very much like how Regency Points work, in fact. A regent’s followers give them their loyalty and strength of belief, and in turn, the followers expect the regent to fulfill certain needs, by spending those RP on that domain’s interests.

And so, in this way, Azrai changed from one type of god (Knowledge) to a new one (Death and Evil)…

Does that make sense? So, for example, Haelyn could be something else if lots of people start worshipping him for some other purpose…

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I still find it very ironic (and greatly amusing) that the God who valued the ever-changing nature of the world was fighting to keep the status quo (that of an ever-changing world). heh.

But if he changed to be not-changing, then he could never change again, because not-changing can’t change to changing. Heh. :stuck_out_tongue:

I do not mind the notions that gods can evolve over time, but i think it would occur over very long timescales.

I’ve also seen the argument for a feedback loop, but it poses a causal problem. Consider: say a god derives his power from his followers. But in order to believe in the god, there must have been a display of godly power. But there could not have been a display of power because the god had no followers… etc etc. It’s a chicken-and-egg problem. So how does that first develop?

Woot! Two paradoxes in one post! Lol.

The notion that Azrai was once a god of knowledge and pride just feels odd to me. In your mind, did he too have a tribe in very ancient Aduria, and his followers were slowly corrupted while he became more and more evil? Or did he suddenly change and then corrupt his followers in secret? Either way, the other tribes must have seen it coming (hence the Flight from Shadow).

-Fizz

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Lol. Here’s your cookie. :flatbread:

I think everything that has been written about Azrai is very evocative and exciting to ponder. I don’t see a problem with any of it, really. But, like many things with this setting, there’s a lot left to the imagination…

I probably didn’t explain my theory fully or properly.

It’s a two way street between gods and their followers. Obviously, a god has their own personality. They do certain things, and express themselves in certain ways. Thus, for example, Azrai has his own agenda for doing things. And he doesn’t consider his mortals’ wishes and such when making his plans.

However, his mortals do influence him, in subtle ways. Maybe the god doesn’t even realize it. Or maybe they come to learn to embrace that subtle change. Each god would be different, I presume.

I don’t think Azrai had a tribe. He only easily convinced certain groups - namely, evil-minded peoples. And, so, Azrai embraced those that began to respect, and then worship, him. He became evil, because that’s what his followers wanted from him. In turn, he promotes what they want, and soon that’s all he and (the majority of) his followers are - evil.

Naturally, Azrai already had that possibility towards evil inside him to begin with… so, chicken, egg? Meh.

Is that helping?

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But, like many things with this setting, there’s a lot left to the imagination…

Deliberate ambiguousness no doubt. So we can both be right. :slight_smile:

OK, so you’re not saying one exists because of the other (deity and flock), just that they influence each other. Yes, i’m fine with that premise.

He only easily convinced certain groups - namely, evil-minded peoples. And, so, Azrai embraced those that began to respect, and then worship, him. He became evil,

Ah, but if he wasn’t evil to begin with, why would he have sought out the evil-minded peoples? His seeking out evil-minded peoples, wanting their respect, suggests that he was already evil, no?

For comparison, would Anduiras or Basaia have sought out evil-minded people because they wanted respect? No, if they sought out evil beings it would be to either convert or destroy them.

So i think more is needed along these lines. Again, it’s academic for my campaign, but i am willing to indulge for curiosity’s sake. Heh.

-Fizz

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