Atlas Project 2: Npc Stats

[b]Why have both? Since we need a viable class for such folks, why continue to
have an inferior NPC version of the class? The reason I specifically asked
about the “underpowered aristocrat from the DMG” was related to this. I
considered a version like the BRCS noble for my Aristocrat, but I felt that
fewer skills and more class features (I have 5 bonus feats to the BRCS` 6)
was they way to go.

http://home.mchsi.com/~kgauck/taelshore/aristocrat.htm
[/b]

KGauck,
I checked out your Aristocrat class. It’s interesting, and extensive. If I had my druthers, the BRCS would end up with a cross-breed between your idea and the current Noble class. The Noble has more skill points (6 base, as opposed to 4 in your class), which I definitely like. Also, the advantage of more feats does allow for more flexibility within the class, which I also like. On the other hand, one bonus feat every 4 levels IS pretty skimpy, IMO. But the inclusion of many political feats in the BRCS does make adding more bonus feats a very viable option for the Noble (1 every 3 levels seems like a better balance), especially if a list of possible bonus feats is created for them.

My only real hangup with your Aristocrat is the degree of detail in the class abilities is a bit overwhelming, and the application of things like “anything applying to the rule or welfare of the domain” is rather broad and open to a wide range of interpretation. It could lead to some very overpowered regents once those bonuses start stacking up. Converting some of those abilities into feats might not be a bad way to go, however.

Just some thoughts (and to let you know your work does not go unnoticed or unappreciated: there are a lot of good ideas in there! :slight_smile: ).

-Osprey

----- Original Message -----

From: “Osprey” <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 1:13 PM

> I checked out your Aristocrat class. It`s interesting, and extensive.

Thanks for the comments. :slight_smile:

The Noble has more skill points (6 base, as opposed to 4 in your

class), which I definitely like.

I like fewer skill points and I compound that by increasing the number of

skills (Diplomacy gets broken up into Bargain for Rogues, Oratory for

Priests and Aristocrats, and Diplomacy for Aristocrats; Bards get all

three). Otherwise Id end up just increasing DCs. This way, published

DCs are useful to me strait away, and I dont dilute the influence of

intelligence.

Also, the advantage of more feats does allow for more flexibility

within the class, which I also like. On the other hand, one bonus

feat every 4 levels IS pretty skimpy, IMO.

I like the large number of feats being special for the fighter. Its one of

the reasons I prefered lots of class features (many of which are

underpowered as lone feats). It made the Aristocrat more focused, and less

flexible than the fighter.

My only real hangup with your Aristocrat is the degree of detail in

the class abilities is a bit overwhelming, and the application of things

like “anything applying to the rule or welfare of the domain” is rather

broad and open to a wide range of interpretation.

I can`t find anything quite this broad. Even still, when you make up stuff

for your own use you can litteraly write “a bonus to some stuff” and keep it

balanced, but that`s not very transportable. Could you point out where I

was so broad? I could probabaly tighten up my meaning.

Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

The Spider (Awnsheghlien Fighter 13, see Blood Enemies book)
Aeric Boeruine (Anuirean Fighter 12)
Rhuobhe Manslayer (Awnsheghlien Fighter 16/Sorcerer 13)
Darien Avan (Anuirean Noble 6/Fighter 3)
Gavin Tael (Anuirean Fighter 9)
Daeric Mhoried (Anuirean Fighter 2/Ranger 5)
Caliedhe Dosiere (Anuirean Noble 4/Wizard 16)
The Gorgon (see BRCS)
The Hand of Azrai (Vos Cleric 16)
The Eyeless One (?? Wizard 9)
Godar Thurinson (Dwarven Fighter 6)
Razzik Fanggrabber (Goblin Fighter 4)
Tie’skar Graecher (Goblin Fighter 7)
Kral Two-Toes (Goblin Priest 6)
Mheallie Bireon (Anuirean Rogue 8)
The Chimaera (Awnsheghlien Wizard 13)
Jaison Raenech (Anuirean Fighter 7)

What about the npc’s levels? Will they stay in the same way they were on AD&D? (I can see that some have changed, but I guess its only the ones who were above 20th level.)
I ask this because I think there are some (some, not all!) of the npcs that are underpowered, IMHO.
What hurts me most is basically Daeric Mhoried, with only 7 levels. I mean, he’s the regent of the most “tough” of the anuirean realms (bordering the Gorgon’s Crown, there would be no other option), and with 7 levels he won’t be much respected.
Now, I now that the regent’s levels aren’t the only factor, but it’s an important one.

…

D&D, and in its 3rd edition more than ever, doens’t makes “fantasy heroes”. It makes “fantasy super-heroes”.
What I want to say is that characters get VERY powerful from medium to high levels. A fighter of about 10th level, could single-handed defeat a very large number of, let’s say, 1st level soldiers (warriors). You might think not, but a group of high (± 15) level could change the course of a war, ALONE - not using their political power, not using their armies, no - using their Base Attack Bonus, their high AC, and their three-digital Hit Points value. :frowning:

One way that I see to decrease this problem is to actually increase the power of the npcs. Now you might think that this will only make all things to be over-powered, wich is surelly NOT the flavor of Birthright. But not. For example, IMC the “average” soldier is not a 1st level warrior. It is a 2nd level fighter (I don’t use the DMG classes - I find ridiculous the concept of “common people” being weaker than “the PCs”. I mean, PCs will already have higher atributes and higher levels, they don’t need a better class). And in an army, at about every 10 soldiers there will be a sergeant (4th level fighter), at about every 20 soldiers there will be a lieutenant (6th level fighter) and so on… you get the piciture.

Now, one thing is to defeat 128 1st level warriors (you don’t know how EASY is this in D&D…).
Other thing is to defeat 100 2nd level, 10 4th level, 5 6th level, and one 8th level (the captain?) fighters.
This kind of thing makes the PCs less powerful direct - now, if they want to defeat this army, they will need to use their political power, THEIR armies…

Well, this is just my opinion, and how I do in my campaign.

Now back to the NPCs, I think some of them could be a little more powerful, to be able to challenge the PCs. I mean, Darien Avan is described as one of the most cunning politicians of Anuire. Is one of the most cunning politicians just a noble 6? And what about the noble 7, the noble 8… (and I’m not even talking about the noble 15, 16…)???
When the PCs reach 6th level, their political skills will be almost as good as those of the Prince, and they aren’t even in the half way of the D&D power curve (10th level)!

Of course, the DM could judge that just as the PCs advance in levels, the NPCs advance too.
This is what I have done in my last campaign.

Anyway, I will try to do one or more of these npcs and submit them, to try to help the Atlas!

What about the awnsheglien? You give their class levels, but not their monster levels. Where do those figure in?

-Osprey

Jaison Raenech
Male Anuirean, Fighter 7, Lawful Evil; CR 7; Medium Humanoid; HD 7d10 + 30 (+14 Con, +16 regent bonus), hp 71; Init +1; Speed 20’ (Run 60’); AC 21, touch 11; Attack: +14/+9 Melee (1d8+8, 19-20/x2, +3 longsword); Face/Reach: 5’x5’/5’

SV: Fort +7, Ref +3, Will +3 (+7 vs. Charm)
Str 17, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 14, Bld 18.
Bloodline: Brenna, Major (18); Blood Abilities: Major Resistance: Charm (minor), Persuasion (major)

Skills: Lead +15, Intimidate +17, Ride +11, Warcraft +12
Feats: Anuirean Arms Training, Conqueror, Mounted Combat, Power Attack, Ride-By Attack, Skill Focus: Intimidate, Trample, Weapon Specialization: Longsword,

Major resistance: Charm (Su): Minor blood ability, grants +4 to saves vs. Charm/Enchantment effects.
Persuasion (Sp): Major blood ability, may cast suggestion once per day (DC 19).
Divine Aura (Sp): Grants +2 to Charisma-based skills. Once per day he may enthrall non-blooded creatures in a 50’ radius as a full-round action (DC 19).

Possessions: “Grandmark,” the Sword of Osoerde: +3 Longsword, grants Divine Aura (major blood ability) to the wielder. This is the hereditary birthright of the Dukes of Osoerde, and was stolen from the former duke when Raenech murdered him and usurped the duchey. William Moergen would dearly love to reclaim this weapon.
Other items: masterwork full plate, large shield, heavy warhorse, potion of cure serious wounds (3d8+5), potion of invisibility. Raenech keeps the potion of invisibility in case he ever needs to flee an otherwise-fatal situation.

Appearance: Jaison Raenech is a well-built man in his early 30’s, with well-groomed, short dark brown hair and mustache, stark facial features, and a dark, cruel gaze. His mouth seems to be set in an almost constant sneer. Raenech stands a full 6’ in height, and in full armor he is an extremely imposing figure. He uses this to good effect in nearly all social situations, as he prefers to intimidate both subordinates and fellow regents in order to keep the upper hand. His notorious cruelty is etched into his bearing and features, and he takes visible pleasure from the suffering of others, particularly those who have defied him or broken his laws.

Hello Ospery,

I tend to go with a little more skill versitility. This was my basic (from memory) build of him but sadly, he has joined his ansestors in my game. I pictured him as more of a lithe athletic sorta guy (balance, jump, climb, swim, & tumble).

PS - your build may be missing weapon focus (I think??).

Jaison Raenech, Male Human Ftr4/Rog3: HD 4d10 + 4 plus 3d6 + 3; hp 42; Init +6 (+2 dex, +4 Improved Inish); Move 30; AC 17 (+1 Chainshirt, + 2 Dex), touch 12, flat 15; BAB +6; Grap +8; Atk +13/+8 melee (1d8 + 8 Grandmark, long sword) SA evasion, sneak attack +2d6; AL LE; SV Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +3; Str 16, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 14, Wis 11, Cha 12, Bld 18

Skills: Balance +9 (5), Bluff +6 (5), Climb +9 (6), Escape Artist +7 (5), Hide +4 (3), Intimidate +6 (5), Jump +9 (6), Knowledge (Local) +4 (2), Knowledge (Nobility) +4 (2), Lead +6 (5), Ride +8 (6), Search +3 (2), Swim +5 (2), Tumble +9 (5), Warcraft +9 (5)

Feats: Improved Inish, Mounted Combat, Power Attack, Quick Draw, Skill Focus (Warcraft), Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Weapon Specialization (Long Sword).

Bloodline: Brenna, Major (18); Blood Abilities: Major Resistance: Charm (minor), Persuasion (major)Major resistance: Charm (Su): Minor blood ability, grants +4 to saves vs. Charm/Enchantment effects.

Persuasion (Sp): Major blood ability, may cast suggestion once per day (DC 19).

Divine Aura (Sp): Grants +2 to Charisma-based skills. Once per day he may

enthrall non-blooded creatures in a 50` radius as a full-round action (DC 19).

Possessions: “Grandmark”- the Sword of Osoerde: +3 longsword, grants Divine Aura (major blood ability) to the wielder. This is the hereditary birthright of the Dukes of Osoerde, and was stolen from the former duke when Raenech murdered him and usurped the duchy. William Moergen would dearly love to reclaim this weapon.

PS - your build may be missing weapon focus (I think??).

Anuirean Arms training covers Weapon Focus: Longsword.

I was building him off of Raesene’s original list (which pegs him as a Level 7 Fighter). However, I like your version, too, especially since he has a bloodline of Brenna.

I figured on the Intimidate skill focus because of the mention of his rulership style in Ruins of Empire: impalement and crucifiction are his favorite forms of punishment and making examples out of those who defy him. So I kinda’ ran with it.

I`d make Jaison an Aristocrat 5/Fighter2.

Using the BRCS hed have four bonus feats and four standard feats. Hed

have 52 skill ranks plus Int bonus. He could have all of Osprey`s feats

except Weapon Specialization, or all of Eosin`s feats, with a substitution

in place of Weapon Specialization. Since Osprey have him a +1 Int Mod, and

Eosin gave him a +2, he has at least a +1 for purposes of thsi discussion,

so I`ll assume he has a total of 62 skill ranks all together. I break the

ranks down as follows:

Administration 10, Appraise 5, Bluff 9, Diplomacy 5, Intimidate 9,

Knowledge (Law) 5, Knowledge (Nobility) 5, Ride 7, Sense Motive 7

A law holder simply must have Law 5 to be effective, a province holder must

have Nobility 5 to be effective. Some Adminsitration is essential.

Appraise and Sense Motive are neccesary to keep your household in line. The

Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate collection is for getting his way in

politics, their arrangement reflects his emphisis.

If I used my own Aristocrat, he`d have 16 fewer skill points the same number

of feats plus the class features Leadership, Wealth, Rank, Title, Education,

and Noble Conduct.

Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

Honestly, I’d keep Raenech’s focus on the Fighter aspect. He’s a usurper, originally a lieutenant to the old duke. And as of 551 MR, it doesn’t seem like he’s been duke for all that long, otherwise the situation with Moergen would probably be resolved. I figure he might have been minor nobility in Osoerde. But he has very militant attitudes in his style of rulership. Personally, Kenneth, I’d go for something more like Fighter 5/ Noble2, keeping the militant focus. There are plenty of other Anuirean regents that I think would switch most of their fighter levels for Noble (or Aristocrat, if you like). Darien Avan being the prime example, and Hierl Diem another (I’d be happy to make a Hierl Diem a straight Noble). Ghavin Tael and the Mhor are another set of regents that I’d keep the fighter focus on, and even Aeric Boeruine.

Anuire may be heavily political, but it’s also a land whose patron is the god of war and nobility. Haelyn is a warrior god, as was Anduiras before him, and the Empire was built on conquest more than anything else. I still like the original BR concept that fighters make good landed regents. In my own campaign, I often back the fighter-focused regents with Noble or Expert advisors, chamberlains, etc. to help support them in the court circles. If using Kn: Law as a requisite skill of ruling law holdings, then I’d add that as a class skill for fighters.

Kenneth Gauck schrieb:

> I`d make Jaison an Aristocrat 5/Fighter2.

…

If I used my own Aristocrat, he`d have 16 fewer skill points the same number

> of feats plus the class features Leadership, Wealth, Rank, Title, Education,

> and Noble Conduct.

> Kenneth Gauck

Kenneth when you use Aristocrat and mean your own creation and others

say Aristocrat and mean the “Noble” class or PC-Aristocrat from the BRCS

instead and still others refer to Aristocrat and mean the NPC class from

the PHB then it gets somewhat confusing. Perhaps PHB Aristocrat, BRCS

Noble and “my own” or “homebrew” Aristorat would allow even casual

readers to understand the differences.

A question to the various creators of Jaesons stats:

Does Jaeson desever the PC class BRCS Noble at all? After all he started

only as lieutenant of the former ruler and was not born as ruler or

even member of the ruling family of the duchy. Perhaps he ought to have

only the PHB Aristocrat or at least 1 level in it?

bye

Michael

----- Original Message -----

From: “Osprey” <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2003 8:25 AM

> Honestly, Id keep Raenechs focus on the Fighter aspect.

The aristocrat is a fighter, as noted by his same feat development (Raenech

could have the same number or one few feats, and could not have Weapon

Specialization), has access to the same weapons and armor. His BAB is only

two less. He may be weaker in a one on one against a pure fighter, but in a

group combat he can certainly hold his own.

> He`s a usurper, originally a lieutenant to the old duke. And as of

551 MR, it doesnt seem like hes been duke for all that long […]

I figure he might have been minor nobility in Osoerde. But he has

very militant attitudes in his style of rulership.

What did Jaison do as a lieutenant? As a pure fighter he`s unfit to solve

the problems described in the random events section. As a pure fighter he

has no skills other than fighting. This is what I like about the fighter

class - it put 100% of its build into fighting. Not fighting and law, not

fighting and social skills, not fighting and governance. Its pure combat.

Which means, I can mix it in to a character design as much as is desired.

But I never build pure fighters except as low ranking muscle. If Jaison was

a bodyguard for the old duke, OK, maybe he`s pure fighter. But if he was

minor nobility and a lieutenant, he`s mostly aristocrat. Even if he came up

through the military he`s still aristocrat, not fighter, because he spend

his time directing others, not slogging it out himself. When the slogging

time comes, he can stand up with his fellows, but its not a pure combat

machine. Such a class is a helpless babe in a political game. His charm

comes from the fact that you can mix it in to create a pure combat

admixture.

Anuire may be heavily political, but it`s also a land whose patron is the

god of war and nobility. Haelyn is a warrior god, as was Anduiras before

him,

Haelyn is the pure aristocratic god. Cuireacen may be a true fighter

patron, but Haelyn is all aristocrat. He admixes his combat with law,

wisdom, a code of behavior, a social responsibility, a hierarchical notion

of society. If Haelyn were a fighter god, what would an aristocratic patron

look like?

> and the Empire was built on conquest more than anything else.

So was the Roman empire, but its held together by law. The proper Anuirean

ruler is likewise capable of conquest and of governance, and that requires

the Aristocratic division of fighting capabality and governing skills. Not

pure conquest. That would be the mongols, who leave and just demand a

tribute.

> I still like the original BR concept that fighters make good landed

regents.

Fighters aren`t good at anything but fighting.

In my own campaign, I often back the fighter-focused regents with

Noble or Expert advisors, chamberlains, etc. to help support them

in the court circles. If using Kn: Law as a requisite skill of ruling law

holdings, then I`d add that as a class skill for fighters.

Play a campaign where the PC`s play the advisors and the ruler is an NPC of

pure fighter build. Watch the PC`s play puppetmaster to the helpless ruler.

Fighters should not have any skills other than the run-jump-climb variety,

because otherwise you are mixing in non-combat skills. The fighter is pure

combat, not combat plus. Combat plus is the aristocrat.

Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

> Osprey wrote:

> Honestly, Id keep Raenechs focus on the Fighter aspect. Hes a usurper, originally a lieutenant to the old duke. And as of 551 MR, it doesnt seem like he`s been duke for all that long, otherwise the situation with Moergen would probably be resolved.

I agree with keeping the fighter focus…My difficulty is in his skill allocation (which is why I mentioned that I have him different for skill reasons alone). I don`t think the straight fighter version is any better at “fighting” than the fighter/rogue and the skills chosen for the rogue aspect were specifically geared to make those levels more fighter-ish.

I would not go with a Fighter/Noble for Raenech. I dont recall him being noble and it does not fit the way "I see him" - but might fit for you. The main difficulty (for me) with straight fighter versions like the one you submitted, and this is personal preference, is that he knows no more about the laws of nobility than your average tenent farmer, he has no skill at subtrefuge - which is not in keeping with his ability to fool the previous regent into believing that he is other than a bastard nor any skill at deflecting the surrounding regents. The straight fighter version can only kill....and not with any sort of finesse. His skill allocation looks more like the dumb fighter in the party than a canny leader who has managed to hold on to a realm for 5 years. There is not any thing wrong with the build - I just dont see it representing a man who stole a duchy through subtrefuge and has kept it.

The second matter that bugs me on the skill allocation for characters like this is that it sets an example for other players. That example is that “Nothing but combat skills matter and spend every single skill point in these 4 skills” This makes Raenech a better general than every single regent who is less than 7th level and better than those who are 7th level but decide that they might need to know a little about nobility (KS:Nobility) or the realm they govern (KS: Local).

Characters should be built with a goal of making them strong at what they do and balanced against each other - but not at the expence of spending every single skill point on one narrow focus. Even Gavin Tael and Boeruine have skill points spent outside of this narrow focus but if they are not able to MAX those skills out, the fighter only version of Raenech is better than they are – when they are famed for it throughout Anuire.

I agree that Avan is probably better than 50% Noble - but disagree with Boeruine being straight fighter…He should have a level in Noble (Or another skill generating class at first level) to reflect that he was taught things and had the best education that money could buy. Aeric Boeriune without KS History - or KS Nobility at a reasonable level (5 Ranks) is pretty hollow. It is part of his make up and destiny to right the wrongs and understand various heraldric claims to titles.

Regents need a somewhat more diverse set of skills than a door kickn brawler and multiclassing quickly and easily provides that (You can take - Expert, Noble, or Rogue). It may be that we just come at the game a little differently and you do not see skills as defineing a charcter as much as feats and stats but to me (especially in BR) skills are as much, if not more of a measure of a character as feats and stats. The skills also need to balance out across the whole spectrum - The Mhor should be the undeniably best general on the field, followed by Boeruine, and then Tael. After the top three it gets cloudy but IMO Raenech is not in that top echelon of Generals. That spot is reserved for Bradonnel, the Commander of Avanils military (Darien or another), then the Heads of the MOC and HA, and the head of the Imperial Guard.

The way the fighter Raenech is built that makes it nearly impossible for this structure - inferred from RoE - to work.

Even with careful building of all the prime characters it is still impossible to reflect comparitive skill levels since Boeriune is 5 levels higher than the Mhor he will be far and away the better general - they are not even in the same league, even Gavin Tael will dominate the Mhor on the field of battle, not just in terms of numbers but in terms of skill and ability.

The builds for 3.5 and 3.0 need to reflect a comparitive skill level while holding to what we know…That will be dang hard to do with out careful thought about where regents spend their points…I know that Daeric Mhoried is a better general than Raenech but it is impossible to reflect that if we accept that Raenech has the skills as allocated in the fighter build.

Anyway, kinda rambled off course a little bit. :slight_smile:

Randy~Eosin

Kenneth Wrote:

> What did Jaison do as a lieutenant? As a pure fighter hes unfit to solve the problems described in the random events section. As a pure fighter he has no skills other than fighting. This is what I like about the fighter class - it put 100% of its build into fighting. Not fighting and law, not fighting and social skills, not fighting and governance. Its pure combat. Which means, I can mix it in to a character design as much as is desired. But I never build pure fighters except as low ranking muscle. If Jaison was a bodyguard for the old duke, OK, maybe hes pure fighter. But if he was minor nobility and a lieutenant, hes mostly aristocrat. Even if he came up through the military hes still aristocrat, not fighter, because he spend his time directing others, not slogging it out himself. When the slogging time comes, he can stand up with his fellows, but its not a pure combat machine. Such a class is a helpless babe in a political game. His charm comes from the fact that you can mix it in to create a pure combat admixture.

Exactly…The skills section of the JR Fighter build is what tweeks me.

I think we cross posted :slight_smile:

This is also one of those cases where we all use different stuff…I like Kenneth`s aristocrat but I use the Wheel of Time/Star Wars revised Noble as the aristocracy. I also tend to look less at what the heading of the class says and more to what it gives me in the terms of building blocks that I can use. I built a fighter/rogue but that build was anything but roguish…It was an athletic, somewhat canny, fighter, not the pre-emminent general in Anuire but no slouch either.

Fighters aren`t good at anything but fighting.

Amen, brother!!

Randy ~ Eosin

> Administration 10, Appraise 5, Bluff 9, Diplomacy 5, Intimidate 9, Knowledge (Law) 5, Knowledge (Nobility) 5, Ride 7, Sense Motive 7

I don`t use law but could buy this allocation of skills. I forgot admin on my write up (doing it from memory) but I think I placed it considerably lower (like 2-3 ranks).

Randy

The new version of the noble for the BRCS 3.5 is a much improved class IMO. It has dropped the bonus feats in favour of new abilities unique to the noble and the skill list has warcraft include. If you are playing a regent, a few levels of noble makes your regent a lot more capable.

To take a look at the new noble class, go here http://users.chariot.net.au/~hoss/pbem/newnoble.pdf

Note: This is only a proposed version, it hasn’t been adopted for the revised BRCS yet.

> Raesene Andu wrote:

> The new version of the noble for the BRCS 3.5 is a much improved class

IMO. It has dropped the bonus feats in favour of new abilities unique to the

noble and the skill list has warcraft include. If you are playing a regent,

a few levels of noble makes your regent a lot more capable.

That is a darn fine noble…I like the +20 BAB but without the bucket`o

feats of the fighter. Darn fine job, IMO. I made a joke that the previous

noble - which is a good class but not really a noble - was a of a jack of

all trades type class.

Randy~Eosin

----- Original Message -----

From: “Michael Romes” <Archmage@T-ONLINE.DE>

Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2003 9:50 AM

> it gets somewhat confusing

I don`t think there are serious differences between the BRCS Noble,

Raesene`s new noble, the noble from Mongoose, the versions of the class in

Wheel of Time, Soverigen Stone, or a host of other settings that are meant

to reflect more than the familiar four class party exploring dungeons. All

use basically the same assumptions, and then very them on that theme. The

point here is not to pick one, its to work with the idea of the class that

combines combat and leadership, regardless of the subtle variations

different designers have used.

> A question to the various creators of Jaesons stats:

> Does Jaeson desever the PC class BRCS Noble at all? After all he started

> only as lieutenant of the former ruler and was not born as ruler or

> even member of the ruling family of the duchy. Perhaps he ought to have

> only the PHB Aristocrat or at least 1 level in it?

The ducal family is not the only noble family in Osoerde. Were the

Wittlesbach`s the only noble family in Bavaria? Osoerde has around 54,000

people in the BRCS demographic calculator. Given the near universal human

experience, looking at many cultures and time periods, roughly 2% of the

population can be expected to be either noble or something aproximating the

special elite characteristics of a noble. That gives us a number of just

over 1000 noble individuals in Osoerde. This thousand souls is very likely

the recruiting pool for rulers to find their lieutenants, assistants,

courtiers, officers, and officials. Those drawn from outside the class of

well born guilders, estate owners, and privlidged clergy are very likely to

be the exceptionally talented Experts. As far as I am concerned, everyone

in BR has at least a level of some kind of Aristocrat (and it really doesn`t

matter which one) with the exception of a few lucky experts who get to live

in court circles. Very likely the children of those experts will have a

very good chance to either be raised as aristocrats or something very close

indeed.

To imagine a court based BR game (I am not talking about just using the

setting to run strait D&D) in which everyone is not an aristocrat is like

imagining a pirate game in which characters are built that know nothing

about ships or life at sea, or a gladiator campaign where a level of fighter

is not a default expectation.

Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

Actually in the Atlas of Cerilia, Osoerde will be listed with a population of 156,000 (based on the average of the population level) and the largest realm in Anuire is Ghoere with 434,000 people, and the total population of Anuire is just over 6 million (including non-human realms).

By the way, that isn’t my version of the noble, Travis Doom wrote it for the BRCS revision, I’m just posting it now mainly because I’m using it in my pbem game, and so you can all discuss it before it is finalised.

----- Original Message -----

From: “Raesene Andu” <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 2:25 AM

> Actually in the Atlas of Cerilia, Osoerde will be listed with a

> population of 156,000 (based on the average of the population level)

I don`t use the 2e published figure for population either, but I thought it

best to take the official numbers because they were the lowest, and so even

in the most depopulated Cerilia, the number of nobles is higher than a

single family. In the Atlas, a rough figure of 3000 nobles would grace

Osoerde, even a larger pool for the selection of lieutenants.

By the way, that isn`t my version of the noble, Travis Doom wrote it

> for the BRCS revision, Im just posting it now mainly because Im using

> it in my pbem game, and so you can all discuss it before it is finalised.

I am pleased to grant attribution where it is due.

Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

----- Original Message -----

From: “Eosin the Red” <eosin_the_red@COX.NET>

Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2003 5:17 PM

> I built a fighter/rogue but that build was anything but roguish.

Rogue is a versatile class. I find it very good for reflecting aristocrats

who are a bit more on the roguish side, who might do more evesdropping,

forgery, and slipping a toxic elixer into the dukes cup than the run of the

mill aristocrat. Such rascals who are strait Aristocrats generally can be

good at one kind of rascally thing, Rogues can be good at several. The nice

overlap of Aristocrat and Rogue skill lists makes it hard to tell which is

which if the Rogue can avoid certain situations. A Fighter-Rogue

construction avoids that problem.

> This is also one of those cases where we all use different stuff

I rarely use the Fighter-Rogue because most of it is already present in the

Aristocrat. The only time I would specifically go Fighter-Rogue was if I

wanted the special class features of the Rogue. But, the fact that it does

produce a similar product as the Aristocrat makes it just as sensible an

approach by a different route. Could Jaison have a few sneak attacks up his

sleeve? It wouldn`t suprise me.

Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com