Cerilian Apotheosis

----- Original Message -----
From: “Ryan B. Caveney” <ryanb@CYBERCOM.NET>
Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 3:33 PM

> > In fact, to portray non-BR rulers in D&D I think you need an entirely
> > different system.
>
> Entirely different in in-game justification perhaps, but not I think all
> that different in player-visible mechanics.

To illustrate Ryan`s point, we could take 15th century France. The status a
person had, and their ability to collect and store political favors, was
tied to their decent, their marriage, their title, any office they held, and
any special achievments they claimed.

Calculating status through decent is pretty straitforward with the BR system
as it is. For historical Europeans, youd need to keep tract of something we might call "native bloodline", which is your unmodified bloodline. This measures how closely related you are to peolpe who are very great, or have long pedigrees. Second youd get a bump from marriage. This could be
handled any number of ways, but it all comes down to either an investure
proceedure (as part of the marriage) or an achievment bonus the reverse of
those described on page 48 pg of the rules. That is, instead of losing 1
point of bloodline strength and 25% of your regency for a failure to respond
to a minor event, youd get a bloodline point and maybe some regency for seccuring a marriage alliance. Same rule, novel interpretation. And, I have mentioned using this system in reverse before. Third, and for Europeans, this one is one of the larger modifiers, a big chunk of ones
status comes from your title. This is one of the ways I interpret the
Land`s Choice phenomena, however, so again, nothing alltogether new. People
have mentioned investiture as being the common or only way to transfer
bloodlines, and they are already more or less in this camp. There is no
mention of offices other then Chamberlain in the rules, but one must assume
that there were other Imperial offices that nobles once used to gain status
over their peers. At the level of small nobles, there are the offices of
chancellor, steward, marshal, &c of various realms. These could be a boost
to effective bloodline scores based on the rough size of the realm, the
status of the office, and any other characteristics which are relevant.
Finally, there is the personal achievment of the noble. This involves the
spending RP to build your bloodline, heroic actions that increase your
bloodline, defeating blooded enemies, and so forth.

So without having to start from scratch, by using either already extant
house rules based on printed rules, certain interpretations of existing
rules, and novel uses of rules intended for something else, BR could be
modified to handle late medieval status. It wouldn`t change rulers very
much at all. Their calculation of the effective RP collection is a bit more
complex. But once its worked out, its as stable is it normally is. The
real change is for non-ruling scions.

In a non-magical game, blood powers could be exchanged for normal feats,
reflecting the superior training and education of the titled nobility.

Its not perfect, but its a lot better than systems I`ve seen invented to
explicitly describe late medieval noble status.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com


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At 05:18 PM 9/6/2002 -0400, Ryan Caveney wrote:

> > Im not sure if modelling is the word Id use since all the modelling I
> > have had the misfortune to have anything to do with involved a lot more
> > math and data-collection than I imagine got used in the creation of BR.
>
>Modeling is precisely the word Id use, and its my job. I used to make
>combat models for the US Navy, and now I make climate models for NASA. A
>model in this sense is anything that allows you to predict behavior. Two
>people have a swordfight – who wins? I try to pick a lock – can I do
>it? A king and a priest contend against each other for the hearts and
>minds of the people – whom do the people support?

Actually, thats why I think a different term should be used. In several posts the term "real world model" has apparently been used to mean "a fantasy setting based on a real world historical period, but presupposing the beliefs of the period are objective reality." "Period based fantasy setting" is probably more accurate. When I read "real world model" it sounds to me much more like a term using the definitions you provided, something like "a realistic recreation of a real world historical period." So theres been a Whos on First confusion going on in which posters have been describing historical figures with a bloodline as examples for their "real world model" which reads like an oxymoron, and when Ive said BR couldnt be used to model the real world theyve read
that to mean you couldn`t create a period based fantasy setting on a
similar rules set. “Period based fantasy setting” is a better term.

Gary


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Ryan Caveney:
> We can base our games on any concepts we want. As I`ve said

before, personally I prefer to play in a fantasy game world
where quantum mechanics and general relativity are indeed
true, but no one (except the DM, and maybe some really
high-level wizards) knows about them. It`s a matter only of
> individual taste.

You`re sneaky Ryan. You and your “magics is physics”. :wink:

–
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)

“Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All.”
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.


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Ryan Caveney:
> Modeling is precisely the word Id use, and its my job. I
> used to make combat models for the US Navy, and now I make
> climate models for NASA. A model in this sense is anything
> that allows you to predict behavior. Two people have a
> swordfight – who wins? I try to pick a lock – can I do it?
> A king and a priest contend against each other for the
> hearts and minds of the people – whom do the people support?

Okay so I guess modelling is the right word to use.

Thanks Ryan.

–
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)

“Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All.”
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.


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Ryan Caveney:
> This is an argument about what constitutes “good
> roleplaying”, and as such simply a declaration of your
> preferred style. This is not an argument that can have a
> final or factual resolution.

You won`t hear any denials from me about this (I recall someone saying
something rather like it at some point). However when people are asking
for opinions I am happy to supply them with mine. I assume that nearly
everything people write on this list has an implied “In My Opinion” in
front of it.

I don`t honestly think there are many topics on this list that have
final factual answers, expect possibly ones about the page a given piece
of information is on in one of the books.

–
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)

“Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All.”
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.


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On Sun, 8 Sep 2002, John Machin wrote:

> You won`t hear any denials from me about this (I recall someone saying

something rather like it at some point). However when people are asking
for opinions I am happy to supply them with mine. I assume that nearly
everything people write on this list has an implied “In My Opinion” in
front of it.

Well, quite. However, from time to time threads degenerate into an
endless round of “Yes, this is still my opinion” and “No, it`s still not
mine.” I felt this one had spent long enough spinning around in this
particular circle that it might be time to point out the invisible IMOs
again. =)

Ryan


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On Sun, 8 Sep 2002, John Machin wrote:

> You`re sneaky Ryan. You and your “magics is physics”. :wink:

I am constantly struck by the parallels.

Nuclear physics is obviously alchemy – we turn various elements into
others all the time. In fact, if you have the right kind of lead, it
will turn into gold on its own over the course of a few hours. =)

And, after all, one of my professors said to me, “As we all know, quantum
mechanics is black magic.” (He is a string theorist, so he should know. :wink:
Getting to know the workings of the universe at such a fundamental level
is a source of immense power and danger, as the history of the past
century (indeed, the entirety of recorded history, though more
dramatically at some times than others) clearly shows. It also seems to
do something odd to your mind, as I exemplify. =)

For serious modern physics research into things which might reasonably be
called “magic”, take a look at http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/ :

From their intro page:

> Engineering and Consciousness
>
> The Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research (PEAR) program was
> established at Princeton University in 1979 by Robert G. Jahn, then
> Dean of the School of Engineering and Applied Science, to pursue
> rigorous scientific study of the interaction of human consciousness
> with sensitive physical devices, systems, and processes common to
> contemporary engineering practice. Since that time, an
> interdisciplinary staff of engineers, physicists, psychologists, and
> humanists has been conducting a comprehensive agenda of experiments
> and developing complementary theoretical models to enable better
> understanding of the role of consciousness in the establishment of
> physical reality.

I have not participated in the research myself, but the best DM I ever
gamed with is a theoretical physicist who is one of their investigators.

Ryan


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Ryan:
> I am constantly struck by the parallels.
>
> Nuclear physics is obviously alchemy – we turn various
> elements into others all the time. In fact, if you have the
> right kind of lead, it will turn into gold on its own
> over the course of a few hours. =)
>
> And, after all, one of my professors said to me, “As we all
> know, quantum mechanics is black magic.” (He is a string
> theorist, so he should know. :wink: Getting to know the workings
> of the universe at such a fundamental level is a source of
> immense power and danger, as the history of the past century
> (indeed, the entirety of recorded history, though more
> dramatically at some times than others) clearly shows. It
> also seems to do something odd to your mind, as I exemplify. =)

Believe it or not, I am inclined to agree with you. My readings on
alchemy and my discussions with various physicists all seem to bear a
striking resemblance to each other. We certainly talk about “magic” and
“physics” in the same way… Whether or not they are in any objective
sort of way (assuming you believe in both of them) I am not sure anyone
could say. However, despite this, I`m of the opinion (as you have seen
from the rest of this thread) that what we know now may have no place
in the game.

For serious modern physics research into things which might
reasonably be called “magic”, take a look at
http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/ :

From their intro page:
<snip!>

I certainly will have a look at this. Thank`s for pointing it out.

–
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)

“Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All.”
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.


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Ryan:
> Well, quite. However, from time to time threads degenerate
> into an endless round of “Yes, this is still my opinion” and
> “No, it`s still not mine.” I felt this one had spent long

enough spinning around in this particular circle that it
might be time to point out the invisible IMOs again. =)

Youre probably right about that Ryan, its a lot harder to do it
sometimes. I get the impression that people feel the need to champion
their particular views from time to time. Or that could just be me. I
often find myself taking different views to some people on the List and
I sometimes feel that its good to show that there are different opinions
out there.

When a thread like that refuses to die it can certainly deserve being
kicked over by an observer :wink:

–
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)

“Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All.”
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.


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Just to throw in my two cents. The following I am currently doing
ascention to demigodhood in my upcoming epic-level campaign. I might do
it differently in future campaigns.

Only personally powerful individuals can ascend. Bloodline has little to
do with it. These individuals must basically be very high level or epic
level, and must be renowned or feared to many, many people. Not all high
level or epic characters can become demigods. “The Land” chooses who has
the opportunity, not gods and not the character themself. This
opportunity is a once in a lifetime thing, and appears after the
character accomplishes some great task. The character must then do
another great task to sieze that opportunity and actually ascend. This
task to ascend is not automatically known to the character, it must be
researched or divined (although some mystic soul-searching may be
possible, too). The task is always related to the character`s past
deeds, their role in society, or the expectations that the populace
place on them.

For example, one of my PCs will soon marry the Empress of the reborn Anuirean Empire. The PC built the new Empire with his own sweat and blood, but is only now thinking about becoming its Emperor. His opportunity to become a demigod will appear when he is crowned as Emperor, even though he wont know this until much later. He will then
have to intense research, looking for “signs” in his personal history as
well as the history of his position as Emperor of the Anuirean Empire.
It will turn out that to become a demigod, he, as the first Emperor
since Michael Roele, will have to personally defeat and slay the Gorgon,
the being that destroyed the Empire and the last Emperor before.

Another example is another PC. Her opportunity appeared when she slew
her great grandfather, Rhuobhe Manlasyer. Now she will need to do some
soul-searching to realize that she must “cure” the realm of Tuar Annwn
in Vosgaard of its Shaow World taint, and bring it into a united Elven
Empire, in order to ascend.

A Third is the Gorgon himself. His opportunity arose when he slew the
last Emperor and sundered the Empire that his brothers built. He can
ascend when he is crowned as the Emperor of that reborn Empire and sits
on the Iron Throne.

Im now trying to come up with events and goals for the two new PCs
that are entering specifically for the epic-level campaign. Perhaps
someone can help with ideas? Here are the new PC descriptions:

  • An albino khinasi wizard that is an Elemental Savant of Air from the
    T&B. He has become an air elemental from that prestige class. He has a
    bloodline of Azrai which he gained in his childhood in Kal-Saithrak from
    killing a minor awnshegh. He realized he was blooded and got the hell
    out of the Gorgon`s realm. He is an introvert and anti-social, quiet and
    thinks of his albino condition as ugly and fears people will hate him
    because of it. He therefore wears a mask and is fully clothed at all
    times. He now lives on that big, uninhabited island off the north coast
    of Vosgaard. I forget the name. He likes sculpting and making works of
    art and beauty. He worships Laerme, godess of art and beauty, and hopes
    that she will recognize him, and cure his albino affliction so that he
    can feel beautiful himself.

  • A war priest/paladin of Neserie. I allowed him to be male. He is
    Rjurik, and is a temple high priest along the north and west coasts of
    Rjurik. He is teaching a dualism of Neserie and Erik at his temple, and
    has recently cleared the northern icy seas of an undead menace (for the
    past 7 game years, some powerful force of undead has been building ships
    and plagueing the northern sea). His personality will likely be
    good-natured and forward, even blunt.

There is not much background to these two new PC`s, who are around the
17th level range. So any ideas and suggestions would be very welcome.

–
/ Adam Theo, Age 23, Tallahassee FL USA
// Email & Jabber: theo@theoretic.com
// Pager: (850) 709 7738
=//=====
// || Theoretic Solutions: http://www.theoretic.com
|| “Building Ideas by Bringing them Together”
|| Jabber Protocol: http://www.jabber.org
|| “The Next Generation Communications Protocol”
|| “A Free-Market Socialist Patriotic American Buddhist”


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<< snip
BE (p. 79) leaves this subject purposely open. quote:
>Has the Serpent made contact with some divine powers other than those
previously known to Cerilia? Has he madesome unholy >bargain with them? …
how can logic explain the spells that the Sons of the Serpent, the Serpents worshipers, are able to cast? If the >Serpent himself is not divine, what power fuels their magic? < Well, I can think of a number of possible explanations: *snip* 2. A surviving part of Azrai (residual essence or whatever) supplies the spells. Perhaps thats a first step on the way towards Azrais return to godhood and to Cerilia. 3. Another god of the Cerilian pantheon amuses himself by granting divine powers to the Sons of the Serpent. That seems to be the most boring solution, but I think Belinik would fit the bill nicely. He is chaotic evil and may have decided to do this on a chaotic whim. In addition, the uncertainty that this unknown power generates among the Serpents enemies
(and potential victims) may alone be enough to instill them with fear and
terror, thus furthering Belinik`s cause.

In my campaign I use both option 3 and 4, in that the Cold Rider is actually
granting the Serpents worshippers spells. Hes trying to expand his
powerbase in the Daylight World this way, while keeping a low profile. He is
after all - or at least in my campaign - the God of Secrets.

    - the Falcon

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[b]Orginally posted by Birthright-L

  1. Another god of the Cerilian pantheon amuses himself by granting divine powers to the Sons of the Serpent. That seems to be the most boring solution, but I think Belinik would fit the bill nicely. He is chaotic evil and may have decided to do this on a chaotic whim. In addition, the uncertainty that this unknown power generates among the Serpents enemies (and potential victims) may alone be enough to instill them with fear and terror, thus furthering Beliniks cause.
    [/b]

I can think of a very simple, and quite logical reason why Belinik would do this (and not boring at all). Belinik is the god of battle and terror, but he is also the patron of the vos people. He would like to see them and their way of life succeed, and to succeed they need to expand. Any expansion would most likely be into Khinasi, so Belinik needs the Khinasi weakened and open for invasion by his followers. Strengthening the serpent by providing spells to his worshippers weakens the khinasi significantly and already the serpent’s followers are reaching the khinasi mainland. After a few more years, they will weaken the khinasi heartland, undermine their leaders and corrupt their people, then Belinik will be ready to strike. Belinik will forge a great and powerful leader amoung the scattered vos lands, who will form into an alliance under this champions leadership and they will sweep down into khinasi, driving all before them, including the followers of the serpent who have been their unwitting allies. Belinik will withdraw his divine support from the serpent, whose priests will suddenly lose their power and the vos will conquer the heartland of the khinasi.