How Big Was the Bang at Deismaar?

If one were to map out a sort of topography of the explosion at Deismaar
with the “shockwave” of divine energies that infused the attendant mortals
with bloodlines depicted as rings how big might those rings be?

There are five categories of bloodline strength; tainted, minor, major,
great and true. Strength was originally linked to a characters proximity to "ground zero" of the explosion. (One might also speculate that bloodline score of those originally infused was directly related to proximity, only becoming variable due to events following the battle.) In addition, there is a small group of individuals who ascended to godhood due to their exposure to the energies of that explosion, so we can hypothesize five "rings" surrounding an "inner circle" that represents the explosions
“ground zero” for the purposes of such a topographical map.

One radius of the circle might look like this:

A| B | C | D | E | F | —>

Where:
A=characters who ascended
B=true
C=great
D=major
E=minor
F=tainted

Optionally, those characters who got a true bloodline could also be at
“ground zero” along with the mortals who ascended (that`s my reading, at
least) but did not ascend for reasons beyond their (or our) ken–much to
the chagrin of at least one of them… For the purpose of speculation we
can just put the inner circle in along with the first ring if we want to go
with that.

Of course, the rings neednt be perfect circles. We dont know how (or if)
the explosion was affected by the actual topography, weather, etc. For the
purpose of the basic idea here it doesn`t really make a difference,
though. “Average” width will do.

The question: how wide is inner circle A and each ring B-F?

Related questions: How many people survived the explosion? How many
occupants might each ring have had? That`s before any subsequent orgy of
bloodtheft, of course.

Gary


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I don`t beleive in the Ground Zero concept at all. I beleive that the amout
of bloodline strength absorbed depends more on your spiritual affinity to
the various dieties that dies. Why else would the greatest generals aquire
the greatest bloodlines? If it was merely physical distance that dictated
things, the gods would not be the former generals but former footsoldiers -
who, by sheer weight of numbers, is likely to be closest to any given point
in space. And why id only Azrais generals pick up Azrais bloodline and
Andurias generals pick up Andurias bloodline?

If we use mere geographical distance, we have to postulate that the
explosion wiped out everybody who did not have a sufficient number of HP in
teh area, leaving only the high-level characters alive to absorb the
bloodlines. But I still prefer spiritual closeness to physical closeness as
the deciding factor.

/Carl


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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Birthright Roleplaying Game Discussion
> [mailto:BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On Behalf Of Gary

> If one were to map out a sort of topography of the explosion at Deismaar
> with the “shockwave” of divine energies that infused the attendant mortals
> with bloodlines depicted as rings how big might those rings be?

Interesting question, although I will say to start out that my conception of
how things happened at Deismaar is a little different than yours. There is a
picture of Deismaar somewhere that shows some human-scale figures fighting
in the foreground, and some god-scale figures fighting in the clouds above
them. This is more how Ive always figured things went. The gods fought in physical but godly form right over the peak of Mt. Deismaar, while their allies fought on a battlefield or a series of battlefields sort of on the eastern slopes of the mountains. So, when the gods did their kaplooey thing, I really imagine it more like their essences attempt to tranfer to the gods
champions, but the champions, while they absorb MOST of the essence, cannot
absorb it quickly enough, and a goodly portion of it spreads out from their
locations. This means that instead of a single “ground zero” there would be
seven ground zeroes around not where the gods stood, but around where
their champions stood.

This picture, incidentally, allows me to justify two things: 1.) after the
godsdeath, the Deismaar landbridge was destroyed/sunk under the sea, and 2.)
there were people at Deismaar who werent instantly pummeled to death from the pressure front, buried by the debris cloud, or drowned with the sinking landscape. This is because the gods were a goodly bit away from their lowly followers, the debris cloud spread largely in a southerly direction (killing the REST of Azrais army, which hadn`t even made it to Deismaar yet), and
most of those who escaped where either at the north end of the battlefield
where the land sank more slowly and they had time to make it to safer
ground, or were close to the shore and got out on the Masetian ships which
managed to avoid the giant whirlpools that formed as the land sank.

Incidentally, Ive always placed the battle on the eastern slopes of Deismaar so the Masetian ships could play a role, but I suspect that the argument could be made that the main land-path was probably on the Western side of the mountain, since those who crossed it seem to have spread mainly north and west, leaving the east for the Basarji to colonize. This argument may depend on the extent to which the Adurian refugees could rely on adequate shipping or whether they moved primarily by land. I think there is good evidense that the Andu at least took largely a land route (so they could take their horses with them), but Im less sure of the Ryuvik and the
Brecht.

Oh, bless me, Ive forgotten about the Vos. Oh, well, perhaps its not that
good of an argument.

There are five categories of bloodline strength; tainted, minor, major,
great and true. Strength was originally linked to a characters proximity > to "ground zero" of the explosion. (One might also speculate that > bloodline score of those originally infused was directly related to > proximity, only becoming variable due to events following the battle.) In > addition, there is a small group of individuals who ascended to > godhood due > to their exposure to the energies of that explosion, so we can hypothesize > five "rings" surrounding an "inner circle" that represents the explosions
“ground zero” for the purposes of such a topographical map.

One might be able to make a case for Tainted bloodlines being a degeration
of a stronger bloodline, rather than a “natural” catagory that existed
immediately post-deismaar. The word does seem to imply that, but I don`t
want to read too much into that.

> Optionally, those characters who got a true bloodline could also be at
> “ground zero” along with the mortals who ascended (that`s my reading, at

least) but did not ascend for reasons beyond their (or our) ken–much to
the chagrin of at least one of them… For the purpose of speculation we
can just put the inner circle in along with the first ring if we
want to go
with that.

Well, hows this for some heavy-duty kenning. The entirety of each gods
essence was INTENDED (if thats the right word) to go directly into their champions. However, because the champions were only humans, they couldnt
absorb the “stream” of godpower fast enough–at least at first. As the
champions underwent apotheosis, they shortly “grew” enough to absorb the
entire stream, so that the entire (say) last half of the godsblood went
solely to them, completing their transformation. (I may speculate that
Kriesha was in the process of healing Belenik when the apotheosis occurred,
which is why both ascended rather than only one).

Thus, instead of a “pool” of godstuff deepest at the center and shallower
at the edges, you get an expanding ring of power. Those closest to the ring
get a more concentrated dose, but as the ring expands it thins out, so those
more distant get smaller doses. This explains the bimodality of the
distribution pretty well. We don`t have a plethora of demigods and godlets
running around because MOST of the godsblood was absorbed by the champions,
while those around them could at most absorb a small fraction of the initial
“oversplash.”

> Of course, the rings neednt be perfect circles. We dont know
> how (or if)
> the explosion was affected by the actual topography, weather,
> etc. For the
> purpose of the basic idea here it doesn`t really make a difference,

though. “Average” width will do.

The question: how wide is inner circle A and each ring B-F?

Caveat emptor.
Circle A (True bloodlines): 10 Circle B (Great bloodlines): 30
Circle C (Major bloodlines): 90 Circle D (Minor bloodlines): 270
Circle E (Tainted bloodlines): 1/2 mile or so

Related questions: How many people survived the explosion? How many
occupants might each ring have had? That`s before any subsequent orgy of
> bloodtheft, of course.

occupants:

Circle A: ~10
Circle B: 50
Circle C: 250
Circle D: 1250
Circle E: 5000

% Survived:
Circle A: >50%
Circle B: 40%
Circle C: 20%
Circle D: 10%
Circle E: 5%

Is that enough wild speculation for you? I`ve got more…

Mark


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I’am not shure if “divine energy” should behave like physical shockwaves. Further I don’t think that the gods were that much centered. So IMO it should be possible that someone in circle X ascended to a minor bloodline and an other in the same circle to a major bloodline.

At 10:49 AM 3/20/2003 +0100, Azrai wrote:

> I`am not shure if “divine energy” should behave like physical

shockwaves. Further I don`t think that the gods were that much centered.
> So IMO it should be possible that someone in circle X ascended to a minor
> bloodline and an other in the same circle to a major bloodline.

What Im really trying to get at here was the size and scope of the explosion, the particulars of how bloodlines were infused aside. Whether there were six (or seven) "ground zero" places or whatever, under the most abstract concept of how bloodlines were created there had to have been some radius for the effect. Characters in far off Vosgaard werent infused with
a bloodline, while those within a certain perimeter were. Proximity was
playing a part.

So under any and all interpretations of how bloodline was infused upon
those present–whether it occurred in concentric circles or whether it was
a single area of effect that influenced the individuals in it according to
some category other than their proximity to the primary figures, or any
other possibility–what are the distances involved? What was the range and
diameter of the explosion?

Gary


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Where is Deismaar?

I think everyone on the battle site was affected more or less, and basically
nobody else.

How large was the battle of Diesmar? Howe many people were there? How large
was the field of battle? How mobile was the battle? There is a lot we don`t
know.

This all boils down to the cultural level we assume these people had at the
time. I`d say that perhaps there were 10,000 people from each of the five
peoples and perhaps twice as many from Aduria - 150,000 men in all. And that
is guessing very, very high. How large an area do these people need to fight
on?

But does it really make a difference? Isnt it just enough to say that it affected everyone present more or less, and almost nobody else? Perhaps a cleric in deep rapport with a dying deity could be affected even if presently somewhere else, but I cant remember any such from the sources.

I guess what you are really aiming for is how many people gained bloodlines
at Diesmar? That is a genuine issue, one Im sure the heralds of Anuire are constantly wrestling with - but Im afraid I can`t give you an answer, and I
think that speculations should be based on the distribution of bloodlines
that we know of, rather than topographical data from the battle.

/Carl

----- Original Message -----
From: “Gary” geeman@SOFTHOME.NET
To: BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 11:22 AM
Subject: Re: How Big Was the Bang at Deismaar? [2#1463]

At 10:49 AM 3/20/2003 +0100, Azrai wrote:

Iam not shure if "divine energy" should behave like physical > > shockwaves. Further I dont think that the gods were that much
centered.
So IMO it should be possible that someone in circle X ascended to a
minor
bloodline and an other in the same circle to a major bloodline.

What Im really trying to get at here was the size and scope of the > explosion, the particulars of how bloodlines were infused aside. Whether > there were six (or seven) "ground zero" places or whatever, under the most > abstract concept of how bloodlines were created there had to have been some > radius for the effect. Characters in far off Vosgaard werent infused
with
> a bloodline, while those within a certain perimeter were. Proximity was
> playing a part.
>
> So under any and all interpretations of how bloodline was infused upon
> those present–whether it occurred in concentric circles or whether it was
> a single area of effect that influenced the individuals in it according to
> some category other than their proximity to the primary figures, or any
> other possibility–what are the distances involved? What was the range
and
> diameter of the explosion?
>
> Gary
>
>


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> kingrick wrote:
> Where is Deismaar?

It was located where the straights of Aerele are today.

-Anakin Miller

"What was sundered, shall be remade.
What was stolen, shall be avenged. "

  • Engraved on the Crown of Diemed

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[b]Originally posted by AnakinMiller

It was located where the straights of Aerele are today.
[/b]

The exact location is not for shure. The designers left it open. Personally I placed Deismaar at the Arnienbae, it looks like a “big hole” there…

IMO Deismaar is indeed in the Straits of Aerele. The explosion was so great, that an gargantuan hole appeared that was so deep that it only could be filled with water.

IMO the explosion must have been like the meteorits who crushed on Jupiter a few years ago. It must be heard till the place where the Magian lives today (hours later of course).

I don’t think there is one “ground zero”, but six explosions (resulting in the seventh) might be reasonable.

Do not forget that there existed a landbridge between Aduria and Anuire, so not the whole Straits of Aerele are Deismaar. As I said I do not like the comparison of physical/geographical and divine explosions. An explosion like a meteor would have caused major climatic and geographical changes, that was not the case.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Birthright Roleplaying Game Discussion
> [mailto:BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On Behalf Of Azrai

> Azrai wrote:
> Do not forget that there existed a landbridge between Aduria and
> Anuire, so not the whole Straits of Aerele are Deismaar. As I
> said I do not like the comparison of physical/geographical and
> divine explosions. An explosion like a meteor would have caused
> major climatic and geographical changes, that was not the case.

I would say that a subsidance of a land bridge was a jolly big geographical
change, and that we actually have no information on whether there were
climatic changes associated with the events at Deismaar. At any rate, it
doesn`t have to be as big an explosion as a good-sized meteor, just
something on the order of the Krakatoa explosion. That did influence
climate, but only for a few years.

So how DO you explain the disappearance of Mt. Deismaar and the land bridge
if NOT due to the influence of a physical explosion?

Mark V.


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On Thu, 20 Mar 2003, Mark VanderMeulen wrote:
> So how DO you explain the disappearance of Mt. Deismaar and the land bridge
> if NOT due to the influence of a physical explosion?

I don`t think it was an explosion that resulted in a crater, because that
would have wiped out all the people rather than giving them a chance to
escape. I think either the good gods made the landbridge sink as their
final act, to safeguard their people from the adurians, or the land was so
tortured by the sorrow of the death of all the gods that it sunk itself
under the sea in despair. Something like that. It had to be slow enough
that people could retreat to either side of it.

Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu


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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Birthright Roleplaying Game Discussion
> [mailto:BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On Behalf Of daniel mcsorley

> I don`t think it was an explosion that resulted in a crater, because that

would have wiped out all the people rather than giving them a chance to
escape. I think either the good gods made the landbridge sink as their
final act, to safeguard their people from the adurians, or the land was so
tortured by the sorrow of the death of all the gods that it sunk itself
under the sea in despair. Something like that. It had to be slow enough
that people could retreat to either side of it.

OK, that`s perfectly acceptable, and kind of cool. I just want to point out
that my scenario also involved a slow enough subsidance to allow people to
escape (indeed, that was in part my point) while still involving a blast
that was at least in part physical.

So do you use this lands personality` in any other ways? I could imagine
that you could, for example, say that Kal-Saitharak (sp?) has become
increasingly more volcanic as the earth rebels against the evil wieght of
the Gorgon living upon it.

Mark V.


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On Thu, 20 Mar 2003, Mark VanderMeulen wrote:
> So do you use this lands personality` in any other ways? I could imagine
> that you could, for example, say that Kal-Saitharak (sp?) has become
> increasingly more volcanic as the earth rebels against the evil wieght of
> the Gorgon living upon it.

Havens notes that Rhormarch suffers from earthquakes because the earth is
grumbling about the civil war.

Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu


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----- Original Message -----
From: “Mark VanderMeulen” <vander@BIOLOGY2.WUSTL.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 11:24 AM

> So how DO you explain the disappearance of Mt. Deismaar and the land
bridge
> if NOT due to the influence of a physical explosion?

Azrai grabbed the region and threw it at Andurias` head. :wink:

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com


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At 06:43 PM 3/19/2003 -0600, Mark VanderMeulen wrote:

>(I may speculate that Kriesha was in the process of healing Belenik when
>the apotheosis occurred,
>which is why both ascended rather than only one).

Given the relative power of Azrai (6:1 at least) hed probably be strong enough to create at least two "godspawn" if each of the other six got one apiece. I kind of like the idea that Raesene was purposefully not elevated for one reason or another, though. It just strikes me as being in keeping with so many other aspects of the characters background.

> > How many people survived the explosion? How many
> > occupants might each ring have had? That`s before any subsequent orgy of
> > bloodtheft, of course.
>
># occupants:
>Circle A: ~10
>Circle B: 50
>Circle C: 250
>Circle D: 1250
>Circle E: 5000

How many total people were there on the battlefield do you think? Were
there many who were outside the “blast radius” of the explosion and, thus,
remained commoners?

>% Survived:
>Circle A: >50%
>Circle B: 40%
>Circle C: 20%
>Circle D: 10%
>Circle E: 5%

So just to be clear there would then have been

Total participants:
Circle A: 6-8
Circle B: 120
Circle C: 1,250
Circle D: 12,500
Circle E: 100,000

Gary


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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Birthright Roleplaying Game Discussion
> [mailto:BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On Behalf Of Gary

> ># occupants:
> >Circle A: ~10
> >Circle B: 50
> >Circle C: 250
> >Circle D: 1250
> >Circle E: 5000
>
> How many total people were there on the battlefield do you think? Were
> there many who were outside the “blast radius” of the explosion and, thus,
> remained commoners?

I`m guessing at first approach that there were maybe 10,000 Cerilian humans
against perhaps 50,000 total Adurian humans (and humanoids), of which
perhaps 10,000 had arrived by the time the battle was joined. And once the
Cerilians had committed to battle about 5,000 elves appeared out of hiding
to join the Adurians.

> >% Survived:
> >Circle A: >50%
> >Circle B: 40%
> >Circle C: 20%
> >Circle D: 10%
> >Circle E: 5%
>
> So just to be clear there would then have been
>
> Total participants:
> Circle A: 6-8
> Circle B: 120
> Circle C: 1,250
> Circle D: 12,500
> Circle E: 100,000

Actually I was thinking the other way around: of about 5000 persons who
gained a tainted bloodline, perhaps 250 (5%) survived. But if you like it
the other way around I have no particular objection, other that that it
raises the scale of things a bit more that I see as reasonable for this
economic stage.

Mark V.


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If 8k defenders, against them I’d go with 15k invaders + 2k Vos + 3k elves. Elves switched side, so they fought for both parties.

Something like that, IMHO. Does any novel or sourcebook give any figures?

At 08:34 AM 3/21/2003 -0600, Mark Van der Meulen wrote:

>I`m guessing at first approach that there were maybe 10,000 Cerilian

humans against perhaps 50,000 total Adurian humans (and humanoids), of
which perhaps 10,000 had arrived by the time the battle was joined. And
once the Cerilians had committed to battle about 5,000 elves appeared out
of hiding
to join the Adurians.

This is interesting because estimates of the numbers of people present at
Deismaar–not just the above one but all that have been suggested–are
remarkably smaller than I had thought they would be. I don`t know why but
I had just assumed it was a fantastically (impossibly) large battle
involving nearly all the able-bodied combatant in Cerilia and Aduria for
about 500 miles… It was the kind of thing that the gods themselves
showed up at–even a dragon or two showed up–so it seems likely that they
would have “called” everyone to the battle that they could, and because of
the nature of that call everyone who could appear would have.

Battles involving the tens of thousands are, of course, huge endeavors and
nothing to sniff at. I had thought it would have been on a scale not
really possible to represent in BR “domain level” terms; hundreds of
thousands, maybe into the lower 7 digits and an explosion that covered a
couple of provinces.

>Actually I was thinking the other way around: of about 5000 persons who
>gained a tainted bloodline, perhaps 250 (5%) survived. But if you like it
>the other way around I have no particular objection, other that that it
>raises the scale of things a bit more that I see as reasonable for this
>economic stage.

Yikes, that`d make for less than a thousand scions after Deismaar. I think
there should be more than that.

Gary


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