Realms: scores

[Sir_Tiamat]

Here’s a first draft that will hopefully demonstrate how I intend to reform ruling a domain. From the simple premise that realms are similar to characters, I strive to design a streamlined system as an aid to roleplaying.

Though I think birthright is one of the best settings designed, it’s mechanics are a bit rusty. For me mechanics are not the core of a setting, they must only work and support the setting. As such, I am willing to radically change the mechanics of the setting, while retaining its feel. I also understand - being on a forum dedicated to an AD&D setting - that to some my views may seem like that of a radical heretic.

[Sir_Tiamat]

After you choose your regent-type, determine your Domain ability scores. Six abilities provide a quick description of your domain’s characteristics. Does it rely on a loyal and large base of followers? On an all-seeing, and ruthlessly efficient bureaucracy? Is it creative and resourceful? Your ability scores define these qualities—your domain’s strengths as well as its weaknesses.

Force (For) measures your domain’s manpower, its militia and labor force.
✦ Many holding attacks are based on Force.
✦ Warlords and Cardinals have powers based on Force.
✦ Your Force might contribute to your Resilience defense.
✦ Force is the key ability for Labor, Muster and Rally skill checks.

Organization (Org) represents your realm’s structure, reorganization, stamina, and vital force. All domains benefit from a high Organization score.
✦ Your Organization score is added to your [realm/holding] hit points.
✦ The number of reorganization efforts you can use each day is influenced by your Organization.
✦ Many […] powers are based on Organization.
✦ Your Organization might contribute to your Resilience defense.
✦ Organization is the key ability for [perseverance] skill checks.

Responsiveness (Res) measures self-reliance, adaptation, creativity, and the reaction time of your domain’s holdings.
✦ Many Distant attacks are based on Responsiveness.
✦ Many Guilder powers are based on Responsiveness.
✦ Your Responsiveness might contribute to your Security defense.
✦If your realm relies on concealment, your Responsiveness might contribute to your Fortification Level.
✦ Responsiveness is the key ability for Commerce, Design, Exploration, Seafaring, and Stealth skill checks.

Intelligence (Int) describes how well your domain learns secrets, is aware of forces in surrounding lands and society, and discovers rival plans.
✦ [Archmage/ Mage] powers are based on Intelligence.
✦ Your Intelligence might contribute to your Security defense.
✦ If your realm relies on concealment, your Intelligence might contribute to your Fortification Level.
✦ Intelligence is the key ability for Research, Source Lore, Information Gathering, and Espionage skill checks.

Bureaucracy (Bur) measures the coordination, planning, and efficiency of your domain.
✦ Many Warlord and Cardinal powers are based on Bureaucracy.
✦ Your Bureaucracy might contribute to your Loyalty defense.
✦ Bureaucracy is the key ability for Administrate, Ritual, and Diplomacy skill checks.

Devotion (Dev) measures your domain’s popularity, your subject’s loyalty, your persuasiveness, and your leadership.
✦ Many Cardinal powers are based on Devotion.
✦ Your Devotion might contribute to your Loyalty defense.
✦ Devotion is the key ability for Ceremony, and Lead skill checks.

Each of your ability scores is a number that measures the power of that ability. A domain with a 16
Force is much stronger than a doamin with a 6 Force. A score of 10 or 11 is the normal realm average, but player realms are a cut above average in most abilities. As you advance in levels, your ability scores keep getting better. Your ability score determines an ability modifier that you add to any attack, check, roll, or defense based on that ability. For instance, making a basic holding attack with a lawholding is a Force attack, so you add the ability modifier for your Force score to your attack rolls and damage rolls. If your score is 17, your realm is pretty forcefull; you add +3 to attack rolls and damage rolls when you make that attack.

Your ability scores also influence your defenses, since you add your ability modifier to your defense score.
✦ For Resilience defense, you add the higher of your Force or Organization ability modifiers.
✦ For Security defense, you add the higher of your Responsiveness or Intelligence ability modifiers.
✦ For Loyalty defense, you add the higher of your Bureaucracy or Devotion ability modifiers.

[Sir_Tiamat]

Skill Key Ability

1. Labor Force
2. Power display/ rally Force
3. Muster Force
4. Endure hardship Organization
5. Commerce Responsiveness
6. Expedition/ Exploration Responsiveness
7. Seafaring Responsiveness
8. Design Responsiveness
9. Stealth Responsiveness
10. Research Intelligence
11. Source Lore Intelligence
12. Information Gathering Intelligence
13. Espionage Intelligence
14. Ritual Bureaucracy
15. Administrate Bureaucracy
16. Planning (admin) Bureaucracy
17. Execute (admin) Bureaucracy
18. Diplomacy Bureaucracy
19. Finance Bureaucracy
20. Ceremony Devotion
21. Lead Devotion

Domain skills can be used in skill challenges for any action the ruler would like to create that is not an attack.

[tpdarkdraco]

Hey Sir Tiamat,

It is great to see someone else hard at work. I haven’t even looked at a 4e conversion for the domain side of things.

I find your ideas very intriguing and I like the idea of a realm character sheet. Very keen to see more explainations and expanded ideas.

[rjurikwinds]

Yes; I’m rather intreagued too, and I like idea of realm/province “abilities”.

I’d naturally ask;
Do each of these abilities material into physical or natural characteristic;
Forests for Force,
Roads for Organisation
Rivers for Responsiveness
Hills or mountains for Devotion
…

Or are these scores more abstract – perhaps more descriptions of the makeup (sophistication) of the population?

[Thelandrin]

I like this idea and I didn’t even realise that I was in the 4th Ed forum until I started reading about the defences and their dual ability modifiers

[Sir_Tiamat]

@rjurikwinds

Yes; I’m rather intreagued too, and I like idea of realm/province “abilities”.

I’d naturally ask;
Do each of these abilities material into physical or natural characteristic;
Forests for Force,
Roads for Organisation
Rivers for Responsiveness
Hills or mountains for Devotion
…

Or are these scores more abstract – perhaps more descriptions of the makeup (sophistication) of the population?

To clarify, these scores are indeed intended to be more abstract, representing the constitution of your government and followers and their collective strengths and weaknesses. Obviously, while these scores represent the attributes of a domain, these could be rooted in various underlying characteristics depending on the domain. For example, the force score of a law domain could represent militia, levies and serfs that could provide labor, that of a temple domain could represent the faithful, whereas the force score of a source domain could well represent summoned creatures and magical forces.

[irdeggman]

I like this concept but you need to be careful or throw out one of the BR core elements.

Somehow the society “level” and source “level” need to be related and force a limitation on the relative ability scores for the province.

What I mean is that (except for elven lands) a high nature and high society can’t co-exist.

The magic power of the land is tied to its nature rating while the physical (e.g., income, military, etc.) are tied to its “society” level.

[Sir_Tiamat]

@irdeggman

I like this concept but you need to be careful or throw out one of the BR core elements.

Somehow the society “level” and source “level” need to be related and force a limitation on the relative ability scores for the province.

What I mean is that (except for elven lands) a high nature and high society can’t co-exist.

The magic power of the land is tied to its nature rating while the physical (e.g., income, military, etc.) are tied to its “society” level.

Domain scores represent the attributes of the domain, that is the collective holding and province levels of a regent. It is therefore not related to the source or society level as such. A high rating could theoretically imply both.

[irdeggman]

@Sir_Tiamat

Realm scores represent the attributes of the realm, that is the collective holding and province levels of a regent. It is therefore not related to the source or society level as such. A high rating could theoretically imply both.

So it is totally independent on pppulation size and terrain?

So an attack is made against the same type of defense (since the attributes seem to work towards those) is likewise indendent?

Are they restricted to each each other - that is you determine them with a point buy type of interaction (like normal attributes)? So that you can’t be “great” at every thing. Or can all of them be “high” or increased to be “high”?

Off hand to me it seems that there should be a limit to these attributes based on population or else a province with a low population can have the same attribute score as one with a high population.

Now if these are reworked to be a percentage that is multiplied by province level to determine an overall number used for such things that would factor in most things that are important, although making it very complicated.

[Sir_Tiamat]

@irdeggman

So it is totally independent on pppulation size and terrain?

So an attack is made against the same type of defense (since the attributes seem to work towards those) is likewise indendent?

Are they restricted to each each other - that is you determine them with a point buy type of interaction (like normal attributes)? So that you can’t be “great” at every thing. Or can all of them be “high” or increased to be “high”?

Off hand to me it seems that there should be a limit to these attributes based on population or else a province with a low population can have the same attribute score as one with a high population.

Now if these are reworked to be a percentage that is multiplied by province level to determine an overall number used for such things that would factor in most things that are important, although making it very complicated.

Let me start by making a few general remarks.

First, simplicity is part of my design philosophy and as such I have dismissed several of my ideas that would provide a better simulation but would become overly complicated.

Second, I want to make clear that domain ability scores do not refer to a single province, but to the entire domain - provinces may or may not be part of this domain depending on the ruler.

Last, I intend to use holdings as modifiers on the skill check.

I now envisage a point-buy system for the basic score, however they can later be modified - e.g. luitenants, feats, holdings. Moreover, I think that a bigger domain should probably have higher scores than a smaller domain. Therefore I am currently considering that these scores are modified by the total level of holdings - where a specific holding is tied to specific attributes. I do not yet know how many holdings should be required for a single point increase in a score and wheter this increase should be linear.

That brings us to the next point. Many skill checks are made at the domain level, meaning that you use all the resources available to you to complete a task. However, some would target a specific province and would require the use of your holdings in that particular province. In this case rather than modify the scores with the total level of holdings in youir domain, I would modify the sheck based on the relative number of holdings within that province.

For example, if you wish to rally your supporters to take to the streets within a certain province it would be represented by a rally skill check, modified with your relative lawholding level if you are proficient using law holdings. Say you are proficient and own more than half of the law in the province level you get a +2 to the check or something like that.

[irdeggman]

Let’s take a look at 2 of the realms in the ooks for comparison.

Roesone and Aerenwe.

It appears per your concepts that the 2 could have identical scores.

But are both equally capable of defensive against magic attacks? Against physical attacks? Are both equally capable of making physical attacks or magical attacks?

Aerenwe has vastly more magic potential then does the mostly farmed Roesone.

Roesone has vastly more income generation due to its more “developed” state.

These are the “caps” that I think you need to address, which is what I’m trying to point out.

If not, then one of the core principles of the original setting needs to be abandoned.

I would propose some sort of limit on “scores” based on population/development.

I also think you need to break this down to the province level instead of assuming the realm level - since many more actions are accomplished at the province level then are at the realm level.

Realm level aggregate attributes could be generated (the easiest way would be to do an average, but that might be too simple) - for realm level actions.

[Vicente]

@irdeggman

But are both equally capable of defensive against magic attacks? Against physical attacks? Are both equally capable of making physical attacks or magical attacks?

Aerenwe has vastly more magic potential then does the mostly farmed Roesone.

Roesone has vastly more income generation due to its more “developed” state.

These are the “caps” that I think you need to address, which is what I’m trying to point out.

I usually don’t like caps in games: why not using the “development” score as a penalty for the “magic” score instead of using a cap? That way both scores use the same rules instead of having the weird 2e Birthright rule but the idea of a high development hurting magic continues to work.

[Sir_Tiamat]

@irdeggman

Let’s take a look at 2 of the realms in the ooks for comparison.

Roesone and Aerenwe.

It appears per your concepts that the 2 could have identical scores.

But are both equally capable of defensive against magic attacks? Against physical attacks? Are both equally capable of making physical attacks or magical attacks?

Aerenwe has vastly more magic potential then does the mostly farmed Roesone.

Roesone has vastly more income generation due to its more “developed” state.

These are the “caps” that I think you need to address, which is what I’m trying to point out.

If not, then one of the core principles of the original setting needs to be abandoned.

I would propose some sort of limit on “scores” based on population/development.

I also think you need to break this down to the province level instead of assuming the realm level - since many more actions are accomplished at the province level then are at the realm level.

Realm level aggregate attributes could be generated (the easiest way would be to do an average, but that might be too simple) - for realm level actions.

You make some good points, let me think how to address these.

In the meanwhile I can partly answer your remark to break the domain scores down to the province level. I think these scores cannot be assigned to every province because it would entail too much book keeping, especially in larger realms. To me, playability trumps realism in a game system. This could of course be a reason not to use this system. However, I see much potential for improvement in game play and consider it therefore too early to dismiss the proposed system on beforehand. I think these things could be adequately resolved.

[Sir_Tiamat]

I now will try to address your points, one by one.

@irdeggman

Let’s take a look at 2 of the realms in the ooks for comparison.

Roesone and Aerenwe.

It appears per your concepts that the 2 could have identical scores.

In theory, yes.

(we could of course have optional “racial modifiers” for realms, but then these two realms could still end up with similar scores)

But are both equally capable of defensive against magic attacks? Against physical attacks? Are both equally capable of making physical attacks or magical attacks?

If both have similar scores, they may also turn out to have equal defences against attacks, yes. As for attacks I will return to that shortly.

Aerenwe has vastly more magic potential then does the mostly farmed Roesone.

Roesone has vastly more income generation due to its more “developed” state.

Which will probably mean that these domains have dissimilar holdings. If they have a different configuration of holdings, then this will not only affect their scores, but also their skill checks, and attacks.

Aerenwe will only be better able to make magic attacks if it a) controls more and larger source holdings; b) is proficient with these holdings; and c) has powers based on these holdings. The same applies with Roesone and Law holdings.

Income, holding and source levels are all resources. How effectively these resources can be put to use depends on class, level, ability scores, feats and powers.

These are the “caps” that I think you need to address, which is what I’m trying to point out

If not, then one of the core principles of the original setting needs to be abandoned.

I would propose some sort of limit on “scores” based on population/development.

I hope to have adequately shown, that these caps are thus provided by holding levels, which are in turn capped by the population/develompments of provinces.

[Sir_Tiamat]

@Vicente

I usually don’t like caps in games: why not using the “development” score as a penalty for the “magic” score instead of using a cap? That way both scores use the same rules instead of having the weird 2e Birthright rule but the idea of a high development hurting magic continues to work.

I not know exactly what you mean. Do you mean “score” as in the province score or as in the realm ability scores? Because the latter does not have a magic score as such, only a score that lets your realm be more effective using magic - and research, discovery of secrets etc.

[irdeggman]

@Sir_Tiamat

Which will probably mean that these realms have dissimilar holdings. If they have a different configuration of holdings, then this will not only affect their scores, but also their skill checks, and attacks.

Aerenwe will only be better able to make magic attacks if it a) controls more and larger source holdings; b) is proficient with these holdings; and c) has powers based on these holdings. The same applies with Roesone and Law holdings.

See this is probably where the apparent logic check is missing.

There doesn’t seem to be a tie in between holding types and ability scores.

If holding types (and sizes) had a direct relationship to ability scores it might make it clearer.

As it is, it appears that both high sources levels and high law levels can contribute to force, organization and responsiveness scores.

It is also possible to say that intelligence is actually not tied to source levels or that intelligence is not balanced against force and devotion.

[Vicente]

@Sir_Tiamat

I not know exactly what you mean. Do you mean “score” as in the province score or as in the realm ability scores? Because the latter does not have a magic score as such, only a score that lets your realm be more effective using magic - and research, discovery of secrets etc.

You have a realm score that says how effective it is using magic, you could penalize all the rolls involving that score with the score that represents realm development (industry, population,…) if you want to keep the BR feeling of development and magic been opposed.

[Sir_Tiamat]

@irdeggman

See this is probably where the apparent logic check is missing.

There doesn’t seem to be a tie in between holding types and ability scores.

If holding types (and sizes) had a direct relationship to ability scores it might make it clearer.

As it is, it appears that both high sources levels and high law levels can contribute to force, organization and responsiveness scores.

Ah, now I see what you mean, it looks like I did not understand you before.

When I said that holdings might modify ability scores, I did not mean to imply that different holdings would modify the same score. I have not worked it all out yet, but I was thinking along the lines of letting law holdings modify Force, guild holdings modify responsiveness, source holdings intelligence and temple holdings bureaucracy.

You could also have each holding type provide a bonus to 2 scores or one and a half score. I have not figured this out yet.

However, different holdings should provide bonusses to different checks.

[Sir_Tiamat]

@Vicente

You have a realm score that says how effective it is using magic, you could penalize all the rolls involving that score with the score that represents realm development (industry, population,…) if you want to keep the BR feeling of development and magic been opposed.

I still do not understand, I hope by making my points clear, your points will also become clear to me.

In the proposed system I asign one set of six ability scores to the entire domain - in other words the total collection of holding and source levels under one regent. These six “ability scores” help determine how well the domain can cary out specific skills, just like ability scores help determine your skills at the character level.

Holding and source holding levels are tools in the proposed system, they are used as weapons and to cary out tasks - in other words skills - at the province level. They work similar to thieves tools, that provide a + to a skill check or a sword +3 at the character level.

The system of province levels and source levels will not change in the proposed system; they will continue to set a limitation on the maximum number holding of source holding levels within a province.

Ah.. perhaps I was unclear because I did not use the proper term for source holding…
In my earlier posts where I said source levels I mean source holding levels, which can indeed be confusing. My appologies.